# On Change with Petro du Pisani > Verbatim, timestamped quotations from the On Change with Petro du Pisani podcast. Each quotation is copied word for word from the episode audio transcript, attributed to its speaker (host or guest), and linked to the moment it was said. Quotations and passages are never written or altered by AI; topic labels, passage notes and episode analyses are AI-generated, and every analysis point cites the moment it rests on. Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words. ## #048 The Accidental Entrepreneur | Carmel Peinke - Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/048-the-accidental-entrepreneur/ - Date: 2026-06-02 (as at 2026-06-02) - Guest: Carmel Peinke, Carmel Peinke - Host: Petro du Pisani - Themes: Accidental path into FMCG, Founding E-Route to Market, Self-doubt and confidence, Networking through curiosity, Authentic leadership, Women in male-dominated tech, Integrity and ethics, Empowering future leaders - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1681852 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Carmel Peinke - founder and CEO · eRoute2Market - Landed in the FMCG industry by chance, launched Lipton Iced Tea in South Africa at Smollan, and built a business intelligence platform from scratch without writing a line of code, keeping it running for 17 years. In their own words: > "I'm still, managing the driving force behind E-Route to Market, which we launched in 2009, so that is keeping me fairly focused." [00:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=59) > "So that was me in Smollan, launching new brands, and I walked into a team that was literally launching Lipton Iced Tea in this country, and it was all the experiential brand building." [02:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=159) > "One-year proof of concept, and 17 years down the line, they still had light. Under their new face, Pioneer Foods. But yeah, and then from there, it's just really been word of mouth." [03:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=231) > "I think that's the reason I joke and say this is the longest I've ever kept a job, because I'm 18 years in. They can't really fire me yet, but the reason I'm completely engaged is because I learn all the time, all day, every day." [07:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=465) > "We were first to market, so that was just like, wow. And in fact, our very first client paid us for three years of exclusivity in their categories." [09:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=597) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Petro du Pisani talks with Carmel Peinke about how she came into FMCG by chance, launched Lipton Iced Tea at Smollan, and saw a sales-data gap that led her to found E-Route to Market in 2009, a platform she built without writing code. Carmel speaks openly about lack of confidence as her biggest barrier, a male competitor who sold a similar business, and her morning self-talk routine. She discusses networking through curiosity, collaborative leadership driven by client delight, and the moment she noticed she was becoming someone she did not like. She closes with her plan to encourage women into data analytics. **Key ideas** - Carmel argues you do not need to be able to do a job yourself to know how it should be done well and to guide it, having led a tech business without coding. ([06:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=394) [06:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=418) [07:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=429)) - Carmel names her own lack of confidence as her biggest barrier, saying it kept her from pursuing big clients sooner, and contrasts this with a male competitor who sold a similar business. ([08:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=529) [08:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=538) [09:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=571) [10:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=611) [10:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=625)) - Carmel recommends networking by asking for coffee to learn about someone's business rather than to sell; the host adds that curiosity is the best way to build a network. ([13:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=808) [14:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=898) [15:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=914) [15:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=937)) - Carmel describes a collaborative style limited by client delight: collaboration stops if the client is not being served. ([16:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=981) [16:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=986) [16:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=995)) - Carmel says authentic leadership means being the same person at home and at work. ([27:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1666) [27:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1666) [27:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1678)) - Carmel recalls being pushed to show more masculine attributes at Smollan and asking herself who she was becoming. ([18:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1125) [20:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1203) [20:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1214)) - Carmel treats secrecy as a warning sign and describes turning down an offer from two employees to build a competing product. ([23:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1419) [24:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1447) [24:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1469)) - Carmel defines success as a leadership team confident and empowered enough to make decisions without her. ([30:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1844)) **Carmel's morning self-talk on a blank page** ([08:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=529) [11:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=677)) 1. First thing in the morning, set your list of priorities for the day. 2. Identify the big rock issues and the big clients to land in the next month or quarter. 3. Ask what small step you can take today to get one step closer. 4. Jot down on a blank piece of paper what is important and how you will get there. **Lessons** - Carmel's experience suggests self-doubt can delay going after large opportunities, and that a competitor's confidence can turn into a far larger outcome. ([09:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=571) [10:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=611) [10:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=625)) - Carmel advises approaching new markets with questions and no sales pitch, so you learn whether a channel will work for you. ([14:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=898) [15:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=937)) - Carmel says good service follows people from one employer to the next, so relationships carry the business. ([12:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=774) [14:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=860)) - Carmel would tell her younger self to trust that she was hired for her ability and attitude and not to be intimidated by a louder voice. ([25:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1504) [25:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1528)) - The host argues for a beginner, experimental mindset: jump in and see what happens, whether you fail and learn or succeed. ([25:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1558) [26:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1618)) **Who it's for:** Women climbing the corporate ladder or thinking about starting a business, especially non-technical founders in tech or data, and anyone working in a male-dominated environment who struggles with confidence, networking or staying true to themselves as a leader. **Facts stated in the episode** - Carmel says E-Route to Market was launched in 2009. ([00:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=59)) - Carmel says the first proof-of-concept client is still a client 17 years later, now under Pioneer Foods. ([03:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=231)) - Carmel says E-Route to Market was first to market, and its first client paid for three years of exclusivity in its categories. ([09:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=597)) - Carmel says the company now has three front-end mobile applications and is working with AI. ([09:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=550)) - Carmel says she is 18 years into running the business. ([07:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=465)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: How did Carmel Peinke start E-Route to Market?** A: While launching Lipton Iced Tea at Smollan, Carmel could not tell Unilever how many stores had sold how many cases. A techie friend offered to work with her; she specced the application, his team built it, and a one-year proof of concept became a client relationship of 17 years. ([01:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=101) [02:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=159) [03:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=206) [03:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=231)) **Q: Can you run a tech company if you can't code?** A: Carmel says she has never written a line of code, yet she learned that you do not have to be able to do the job to know how it should be done well and to guide the process. ([06:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=394) [06:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=418) [36:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=2180)) **Q: What held Carmel back as a founder?** A: She says her biggest barrier was herself and a lack of confidence, which meant she may not have gone after big clients as early as she should have. She contrasts this with a male competitor who sold a similar business for a large sum. ([08:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=538) [09:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=571) [10:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=611) [10:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=625)) **Q: How do I build a business network in a new market?** A: Carmel suggests calling people, asking for coffee, saying you do not want to sell anything, and asking them to help you understand the industry. The host adds that curiosity about how others succeeded is the best way to network. ([14:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=898) [15:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=914) [15:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=937)) **Q: How can a woman move up the leadership ladder and stay true to herself?** A: Carmel describes being pushed to show more masculine attributes and asking herself who she was becoming. She argues an authentic leader is the same person at home and at work, and says running her own company lets her lead true to her values. ([18:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1125) [20:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1203) [21:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1301) [27:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1666)) **Q: What are warning signs that a business deal is unethical?** A: Carmel says that when something is a secret it is never meant to be. She turned down two employees who wanted to build a competing product with her off-site. ([23:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1419) [24:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1447) [24:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1469)) **Q: What does Carmel Peinke plan to do for women in tech?** A: One of her 2026 goals is to get women involved in tech, data analytics and data science, including telling first-year university students that they are exactly how the consumer behaves. ([33:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1982) [33:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=2004)) **Q: How does Carmel deal with self-doubt day to day?** A: She sits down first thing in the morning, sets priorities and big goals, decides on one small step for the day, and writes it on a blank piece of paper. She says this gives her structure. ([08:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=529) [11:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=677)) ### Passage: From accidental FMCG hire to founding E-Route to Market [01:41–04:00, 456 words] Note (AI): Carmel's origin story: the recruiter, the Lipton Iced Tea launch, the sales-data gap, and the proof of concept that became a 17-year client relationship. Carmel Peinke, guest [01:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=101): > You mentioned earlier that I got my slot into the FMCG industry purely by chance, and when I tell you that's the truth, it's the God's honest truth. I was working with the most amazing lady. I was working in the automotive industry, and I had the most amazing lady who was my recruitment agent. And she called me up one day and she said, I've got the perfect job for you. And I said to her, Estelle, I'm not really in the market for a job because I really did love my job. And she said, no, no, I need you to meet this executive at Smollan. Please send me your updated CV, which I duly did. He saw my CV, he was a bit underwhelmed because I knew nothing about the FMCG industry. I was like, why would I apply for a senior position in the FMCG industry when I know nothing about it? She eventually bullied us to just have a cup of coffee. And I went through a very rigorous recruitment process. the person that I was replacing really supported me. She paid it forward. She spent weekends with me explaining the industry. I got to put together what I think to this day was an incredible presentation and I landed the job. So that was me in Smollan, launching new brands, and I walked into a team that was literally launching Lipton Iced Tea in this country, and it was all the experiential brand building. So it was getting parasols placed, it was getting the product listed on menu, it was getting people to sample, it was running competitions, it was doing fun mixes with products, just a whole lot of real brand awareness. And every Friday in those days, Unilever, Unilever still owned Lipton Iced Tea, but every Friday I had a meeting with Unilever to explain how sales performance was going. Carmel Peinke, guest [03:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=196): > And it was a, it was an absolute fly by the seat of our pants, you know, how many stores have sold how many cases of Lipton Iced Tea, and we honestly didn't Carmel Peinke, guest [03:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=205): > know. So I was by chance explaining this challenge to a friend of mine one day, and he was a techie, and he said, Carmel, let's work together on this. And I specced the application. His team developed it. We had a one-year proof of concept with the Ceres Beverage Company, because in that year, Lipton Iced Tea moved over to being manufactured by Ceres, what was then the Ceres Beverage Company. One-year proof of concept, and 17 years down the line, they still had light. Under their new face, Pioneer Foods. But yeah, and then from there, it's just really been word of mouth. ### Passage: Self-doubt, a competitor's exit, and the blank page [08:49–11:48, 536 words] Note (AI): Carmel names her own confidence as her biggest barrier, contrasts it with a male competitor's sale, and describes the morning self-talk routine she uses. Petro du Pisani, host [08:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=529): > So what is the biggest barriers you've had to face in this whole journey of learning and how did you overcome them? Carmel Peinke, guest [08:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=538): > I think probably my biggest barrier has been myself. And it's, it's been a lack of confidence. to this day, when, when I show people, so we've now got three applications, three front-end applications, mobile applications, and we're now working with AI. And to this day, when somebody goes, oh my gosh, that's amazing, I'm blown away. Every time. So I hope I never lose that actually, because it's a genuine appreciation then for what we do. But that has been a stumbling block for me because it's meant that I potentially haven't gone after the big fish as soon as I should have. Or maybe I needed more experience, and only now we can really go after the big, big fish. I'll, I'll tell you why I say, why I think it was a stumbling block. There was a, there is a man who started a similar business. We were first to market, so that was just like, wow. And in fact, our very first client paid us for three years of exclusivity in their categories. So we could talk to anybody else if they had different categories, but not in their categories. There's a man in the industry who started a similar business about a year after me, but he started it in Africa. He is South African, started it up there, and then came back here. And he subsequently sold his business for an insane amount of money. And I just realize that that's the difference between a man's confidence. They just, they don't have that doubt thing. They just go for the target that I deviate left or right. Whereas I have sat On a rock every now and again, sort of, am I doing the right thing? Is this right? Are we really solving a real world problem? Is this enough? That's what I say, biggest stumbling block has definitely been me. Petro du Pisani, host [10:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=652): > So what helps you to get over that self-doubt and keep going? Carmel Peinke, guest [10:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=657): > Sometimes I need to sit myself down and have a real chat with myself. You know, first thing in the morning before, you know, as the sun's coming up, it's just to, what is my list of priorities for the day? What are the big rock issues that, or what are the big clients I need to land in the next month or the next quarter? You know, where do I want to go? And what do I need to do today? What small step do I need to take, do today to bring me one step closer to that? And I think it's taking those moments of self-talk. Just stopping at the blank piece of paper, all my notes are in here, blank piece of paper and just jotting down what's important. How am I going to get there? What do I need to do? I think that, I think that helps me tremendously. Doesn't mean I stop feeling the lack of confidence, but it just, it makes, it creates structure for me. Petro du Pisani, host [11:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=706): > So Carmel Peinke, guest [11:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=706): > I've got a little roadmap, and then I can go. ### Passage: Relationships and networking by asking questions [13:28–15:58, 498 words] Note (AI): Practical networking approach: stable product, warm relationships, and coffee meetings where you ask questions rather than sell. Petro du Pisani, host [13:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=808): > It sounds like this business is very sort of relationship based. If you've built a good relationship, then people will keep using your business. So how important has that been to like network and build relationships? Carmel Peinke, guest [13:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=823): > It's been crucial. Like our product has to stand the test of time and it's got to be stable. It can never fall over. You know, all of those things that actually should be a bare minimum in a, a software or a software as a service or software as a platform environment. The relationships will open the doors. I've just been on a conference Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday, with one of the petroleum companies and all of the suppliers and all of the route to market partners were there. And it was just the going to go and greet somebody you know and in walking into that group going, oh, you must meet so and so. And it's having that warmth. That's where it's been good to be a woman, that you can walk in and hug somebody hello and just like be genuinely pleased to see them. Immediately introduce me. You must come and see so and so. You know, meet our new MD. It's like, oh, this is great. Hi, I'm so embarrassed that I haven't met you yet. So, the relationship thing has definitely worked. Petro du Pisani, host [14:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=876): > Yeah, so I get a lot of questions from my coaching clients about how do I build my network and how do I do networking and how do I break into a new market? so do you have any tips around how to do that? Carmel Peinke, guest [14:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=890): > It's so interesting you ask me that question right now because that's one of the little rocks I'm sitting on. And you know, you do it exactly the same way you did the first time. You pick up the phone and you say, can I come and have a cup of coffee with you? I don't want to sell you anything. I actually just want to ask you some questions. I would like you to help me understand the industry a bit better, please. And if it's relevant, I'd like to see if our services can help you. Petro du Pisani, host [15:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=913): > Yeah. I sort of think that the best way to network or to build a network is through curiosity, is to just be 100% curious about the business, about how they made it work for them, what they did to be successful, you know, and just to see if anything aligns. 100%. Yeah. Carmel Peinke, guest [15:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=933): > Yeah. Because if you, to that point exactly, if you're, if you're approaching it with the curiosity, as you mentioned, then you're getting more answers than questions, and you will walk away from that meeting knowing whether this channel is actually going to work for you or not. Carmel Peinke, guest [15:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=949): > Yeah. Carmel Peinke, guest [15:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=949): > Not you as a person, your service offering. Because if you've asked enough questions of the first person you encounter, they'll tell you enough for you to know. ### Passage: Collaborative leadership and the Smollan mandate [16:21–18:44, 400 words] Note (AI): Carmel describes her leadership style, how client delight limits collaboration, and the autonomy at Smollan that prepared her to run her own company. Carmel Peinke, guest [16:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=981): > I prefer a collaborative leadership style. I guess, actually, I'm a bit of a mixed bag because collabora, I don't believe I'm the knower of all things. I do not have the answers to all questions, and I firmly believe the more brains you throw at a problem, the better your solution's going to be. I am driven for client delight, though. So we can collaborate all we like. If, if we are not delighting the client, the collaboration stops, because without them, we don't exist. So, that's something, and over the years, That has served me well, and it's not served me well, because people, so, you're a woman, and oftentimes people that don't know you will then think, when you start engaging, when they start their employment journey, they're like, oh, she's quite relaxed. And it's almost a fundamental human failing that, okay, I see she's quite relaxed, so I'll just... And the crazy thing is, as a woman, you also feel it intuitively, and then, and then the minute I feel something's off, then I start checking outcomes, and I'm like, we've got a problem here. And then I get fiercely cheeky, Petro du Pisani, host [17:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1048): > which Carmel Peinke, guest [17:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1049): > is so unnecessary. I get downright savage. And I guess I was that, I was probably a harder leader at Smollan, because it's an incredibly hard business, but they also, they drive excellence. There, you can breathe and you can have excellence, and those are the only two things that occupy your day. also client delight, and they want performance, the end. and then when I transitioned into my business, I think I've kept a lot of that. And I was also very fortunate at Smollan in that, so I reported into a man who reported directly into, in those days, Doug Smollan, and he gave me carte blanche. He said to me, Carmel, here's the mandate. This is the earnings that you need to achieve. This is, you know, the turnover I would recommend to get that. This is where you're going. If You have to excuse my tone of phrase, but this is literally what he said. He said, if the shit hits the fan, phone me. Otherwise, just go and get it. So that was really good for me. He just left me alone. I was responsible and accountable. Petro du Pisani, host [18:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1119): > Yeah. Carmel Peinke, guest [18:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1120): > so it was quite easy then for me to migrate over. ### Passage: Being tested on integrity and femininity at work [18:45–21:21, 449 words] Note (AI): A turning point: Carmel recognises she was being pushed to lead against her nature and connects it to her exit to build E-Route to Market. Petro du Pisani, host [18:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1125): > Another thing that I, I, I see a lot of women grappling with, as they go up the leadership chain to, to higher and higher levels is how do I do that, but still maintain my own sense of self and my own sense of authority and integrity, you know? Cause it's, it's almost like in some companies you have to mold yourself to that company and become like a representative of that company to get anywhere. So how do you go up the leadership ladder while still being true to yourself? Carmel Peinke, guest [19:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1157): > And maintaining your femininity. Petro du Pisani, host [19:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1159): > Yeah, and, and that as well. Yes. Carmel Peinke, guest [19:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1161): > You've just. Shaking me up with that thinking, because as much as I absolutely loved where I was, because it was such a hard male-dominated world, I was expected to be a very hard leader in terms of driving outcomes, driving performance. and actually, if I, if I have to really dig deep, I probably, I mean, I could have wandered over to the IT guys, I knew them, to take my idea to Smollan. I actually was being tested at exactly that point in time. my line manager had changed, and, and I was being tested on exactly the points you make. And I remember driving home one day, talking to myself out loud, cause I do do that, and saying to myself, cause I'd lost my temper. And I got into my car on the way home, and I said, who the hell are you? Who are you becoming? And I didn't like it. And as much as he was only one aspect of my life, I was clearly starting to face that very thing. And I've actually never thought about that before. Because for me, the next thing was just moving into getting E-Route to Market off the ground. And then that guy moved into another portfolio and somebody else came in who was like quite relaxed with me and said, like, Carmel, we just need you to stick around for another three months. We, we don't. And then it was three, I had an 11-month notice period by the end of it. But I was coming into the office, but doing what I needed to, to get E-Route to Market going. And it was everybody was on board with it. But I hadn't actually thought about that. I was being tested on that very thing to maintain my integrity, to, I'm a woman. And, and he was challenging exactly that. Just by pushing me, I mean, he, he wasn't doing anything untoward, but just by pushing, pushing me to display more masculine attributes. Yeah, I've actually never thought about it like that. ### Passage: Authentic leadership and managing personalities [27:46–29:14, 271 words] Note (AI): Carmel's summary of what 17 years of leading taught her about consistency, trust and handling different personalities. Carmel Peinke, guest [27:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1666): > That it is not a one size fits all. I believe you have to keep your core values and your core self in check, you know, in place, not in check, in place. And I think to be an authentic leader, the person you are at home must be the person you are at work. And I don't mean for me, the person with no makeup and threatening to show my head bald just now, my characteristics must be the same. If at home, I'm a neat freak and in the office, I'm going to be a neat freak. If at home, you know, just in terms of keeping yourself, authentic, you can't be two different people because I think people, others can pick up on that and then mistrust comes in and all sorts of things. So I think you have to be as authentic as possible while keeping your eye on the ball, while being aware of the competitor landscape, while being aware of the fact that you're actually just a mom to a bunch of big adults when you're actually, to a bunch of five-year-olds housed in big adult bodies, when you're actually a five-year-old housed in an adult body too. So you're kind of corolling kids on a playground to try and get them to work together. And it's, and I don't mean to sound flippant or disrespectful. I'm just like, I, I do believe we're all five-year-olds trapped in a huge big body. So, you know, how do you engage with the different personalities and get the personalities to engage with each other for the best? ### Quotes > "I've never written a line of code in my life. I guess I'm a salesperson, maybe a cheeky one, but I prefer the people engagement." > — Carmel Peinke, guest · [06:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=404) > "you don't have to be able to do the job to know how it needs to be done well, and you can still guide that process." > — Carmel Peinke, guest · [07:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=429) > "No man is an island. No woman either." > — Carmel Peinke, guest · [07:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=448) > "He said, if the shit hits the fan, phone me. Otherwise, just go and get it." > — Carmel Peinke, guest · [18:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1107) > "who the hell are you? Who are you becoming? And I didn't like it." > — Carmel Peinke, guest · [20:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1214) > "When something's a secret, it's never meant to be." > — Carmel Peinke, guest · [24:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1447) > "just go massive or give up. Don't dilly dally." > — Carmel Peinke, guest · [26:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1596) > "I think to be an authentic leader, the person you are at home must be the person you are at work." > — Carmel Peinke, guest · [27:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1678) > "I do believe we're all five-year-olds trapped in a huge big body." > — Carmel Peinke, guest · [29:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1744) > "You are exactly how the consumer behaves." > — Carmel Peinke, guest · [33:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=2013) > "I just want to be fair, do you know?" > — Carmel Peinke, guest · [34:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=2061) ### Claims > "I'm still, managing the driving force behind E-Route to Market, which we launched in 2009, so that is keeping me fairly focused." > — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Founding E-Route to Market · [00:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=59) > "You mentioned earlier that I got my slot into the FMCG industry purely by chance, and when I tell you that's the truth, it's the God's honest truth." > — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Accidental path into FMCG · [01:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=101) > "So that was me in Smollan, launching new brands, and I walked into a team that was literally launching Lipton Iced Tea in this country, and it was all the experiential brand building." > — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Accidental path into FMCG · [02:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=159) > "So I was by chance explaining this challenge to a friend of mine one day, and he was a techie, and he said, Carmel, let's work together on this. And I specced the application. His team developed it." > — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Founding E-Route to Market · [03:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=206) > "One-year proof of concept, and 17 years down the line, they still had light. Under their new face, Pioneer Foods. But yeah, and then from there, it's just really been word of mouth." > — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Founding E-Route to Market · [03:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=231) > "So the man I was dating at the time was an entrepreneur, so he just pushed and pushed and pushed and said, you've got to do this, don't be silly. And I was petrified, because Smollan was a, Smollan is, not Smollan was, is a really amazing business, really well respected in our industry." > — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Founding E-Route to Market · [04:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=255) > "He was going for six weeks, and he said, I'm leaving tonight. When I get back, your resignation must be in. You must be serving your last month's notice. And I was like, oh my goodness, and I did." > — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Founding E-Route to Market · [04:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=275) > "About a year and a half later, the CEO and I had a chat, and he raised his eyebrows at me, and he said to me, why didn't you bring this idea to our business?" > — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Founding E-Route to Market · [05:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=304) > "You can't lead a team if your knowledge base is less than theirs, right? That for me was a big thing. And then I confronted that again, starting a tech business. I've never written a line of code in my life." > — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Women in male-dominated tech · [06:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=394) > "And both of those circumstances, I think, gave me Wisdom that I can probably be seen now as, as a grey and grumpy person, that you don't have to be able to do the job to know how it needs to be done well, and you can still guide that process." > — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Authentic leadership · [06:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=418) > "I think that's the reason I joke and say this is the longest I've ever kept a job, because I'm 18 years in. They can't really fire me yet, but the reason I'm completely engaged is because I learn all the time, all day, every day." > — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Founding E-Route to Market · [07:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=465) > "I think probably my biggest barrier has been myself. And it's, it's been a lack of confidence." > — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Self-doubt and confidence · [08:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=538) > "so we've now got three applications, three front-end applications, mobile applications, and we're now working with AI." > — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Founding E-Route to Market · [09:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=550) > "But that has been a stumbling block for me because it's meant that I potentially haven't gone after the big fish as soon as I should have." > — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Self-doubt and confidence · [09:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=571) > "We were first to market, so that was just like, wow. And in fact, our very first client paid us for three years of exclusivity in their categories." > — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Founding E-Route to Market · [09:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=597) > "There's a man in the industry who started a similar business about a year after me, but he started it in Africa. He is South African, started it up there, and then came back here. And he subsequently sold his business for an insane amount of money." > — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Self-doubt and confidence · [10:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=611) > "And I just realize that that's the difference between a man's confidence. They just, they don't have that doubt thing. They just go for the target that I deviate left or right." > — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Self-doubt and confidence · [10:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=625) > "What small step do I need to take, do today to bring me one step closer to that? And I think it's taking those moments of self-talk. Just stopping at the blank piece of paper, all my notes are in here, blank piece of paper and just jotting down what's important." > — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Self-doubt and confidence · [11:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=677) > "You have to be able to prove that you can speak the language to prove your technical competence, to prove that whatever has been developed, you know, in the back room behind you is going to deliver the goods." > — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Women in male-dominated tech · [12:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=754) > "People move from supplier to supplier. And if people have had good service from us with one employer, when they move to the next, they find us and say, you know, carry on." > — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Networking through curiosity · [12:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=774) > "That's where it's been good to be a woman, that you can walk in and hug somebody hello and just like be genuinely pleased to see them." > — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Networking through curiosity · [14:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=860) > "You pick up the phone and you say, can I come and have a cup of coffee with you? I don't want to sell you anything. I actually just want to ask you some questions. I would like you to help me understand the industry a bit better, please." > — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Networking through curiosity · [14:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=898) > "I sort of think that the best way to network or to build a network is through curiosity, is to just be 100% curious about the business, about how they made it work for them, what they did to be successful, you know, and just to see if anything aligns." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Networking through curiosity · [15:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=914) > "if you're approaching it with the curiosity, as you mentioned, then you're getting more answers than questions, and you will walk away from that meeting knowing whether this channel is actually going to work for you or not." > — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Networking through curiosity · [15:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=937) > "I don't believe I'm the knower of all things. I do not have the answers to all questions, and I firmly believe the more brains you throw at a problem, the better your solution's going to be." > — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Authentic leadership · [16:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=986) > "I am driven for client delight, though. So we can collaborate all we like. If, if we are not delighting the client, the collaboration stops, because without them, we don't exist." > — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Authentic leadership · [16:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=995) > "He said to me, Carmel, here's the mandate. This is the earnings that you need to achieve. This is, you know, the turnover I would recommend to get that. This is where you're going." > — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Authentic leadership · [18:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1093) > "And I remember driving home one day, talking to myself out loud, cause I do do that, and saying to myself, cause I'd lost my temper. And I got into my car on the way home, and I said, who the hell are you? Who are you becoming? And I didn't like it." > — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Integrity and ethics · [20:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1203) > "In many ways it is, because I can wake up and face the day true to me, true to my own drive and what I expect of myself, I expect of others, and the way we behave. We are not rude to anybody. We do not treat anybody with disrespect." > — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Authentic leadership · [21:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1301) > "And every now and again I do think, I need a male partner just to, you know, and I've asked nicely once and I've asked nicely twice and promised you by the third time I am going to go nuclear," > — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Women in male-dominated tech · [22:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1338) > "It's like, no, I can't. It's, it's just unethical. You know, you're taking a salary from this company and then you're asking me to help you develop something where you're potentially going to compete with this company." > — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Integrity and ethics · [23:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1419) > "But if two people from within the company want to meet me offsides and offsite, and it's a quiet conversation and can we do this? It's like, no, wait a minute, something's a secret." > — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Integrity and ethics · [24:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1469) > "I would tell her to trust the fact that she got the job based on her ability and her attitude. And she should believe in that to actually let that guide her wherever she goes next." > — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Self-doubt and confidence · [25:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1504) > "And don't be afraid of a man's big voice. If what you're saying makes more sense, look him straight in the eye and say what you need to say without being rude." > — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Women in male-dominated tech · [25:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1528) > "I mean, it's probably the biggest thing that I see with female leaders is that we just don't believe in ourselves. We've got all the qualifications and all of the credentials and we've done so much work." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Self-doubt and confidence · [25:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1558) > "And I think we have to have a, like a beginner mindset, like a experimentational mindset. Just try it. Just jump and see what happens. You know, what's the worst that can happen?" > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Self-doubt and confidence · [26:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1618) > "That it is not a one size fits all. I believe you have to keep your core values and your core self in check, you know, in place, not in check, in place. And I think to be an authentic leader, the person you are at home must be the person you are at work." > — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Authentic leadership · [27:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1666) > "So success for me means that the leadership team are confident and capable and enabled. They must be empowered and enabled to make decisions and do, and I've gotta trust that they're doing the right thing and they've just gotta go." > — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Empowering future leaders · [30:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1844) > "One of my 2026 things is to get more involved in, I need to figure out where to start, to get women more involved in the tech space, to get women more involved in data analytics, data science." > — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Women in male-dominated tech · [33:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1982) > "And ladies, please don't think you're incompetent because trust me when it comes to consumer behavior, you are. The sample size of one, but there are 2,000 of you sitting in this room. You are exactly how the consumer behaves." > — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Women in male-dominated tech · [33:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=2004) > "I'd like them to say, she drove us like hell. She expected the best from everybody all the time, but she was fair and she was honest and she gave us back everything we gave her." > — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Empowering future leaders · [34:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=2042) > "And then, I mean, the coaching that I do is almost exclusively for women." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Empowering future leaders · [35:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=2142) > "if I own a software company and I've never written a line of code, for the love of all things sensible, I can find a way to get other women to see this, understand it, and believe it, and do the same." > — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Women in male-dominated tech · [36:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=2180) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) How curiosity became a technology business. In the sixth episode of On Change: Powerful Women, Petro du Pisani speaks with Carmel Peinke, founder and CEO of eRoute2Market, a technology business that helps brands understand where their products are sold and how consumers buy. Carmel Peinke built a business intelligence platform from scratch, without writing a single line of code, and kept it running for 17 years. This episode is for women climbing the corporate ladder or thinking about starting their own business who want honest proof that it is possible to lead, to grow, and to stay true to yourself while doing it. Carmel shares how she landed in the FMCG industry by pure chance, launched Lipton Iced Tea in South Africa at Smollan, and spotted a data gap that became the founding idea behind E-Route to Market, a SaaS platform that helps consumer goods brands understand where their products are sold in real time, including in township retail stores. She talks candidly about the self-doubt that slowed her down, the male competitor who sold a similar business for millions because he simply backed himself harder, and how she uses structured self-talk and a blank piece of paper to push through paralysis. The conversation covers authentic leadership, collaborative leadership style, how to build a business network through curiosity rather than selling, and what it feels like to work in a male-dominated tech environment as a woman. Carmel reflects on the moment she caught herself becoming someone she did not recognise, chose integrity over conformity, and how running her own company finally gave her the freedom to lead on her own terms. Carmel also shares her 2026 ambition: getting into universities to show female first-year students that consumer behaviour insight is a superpower in data science and analytics, and that they already are the sample size. If you have ever told yourself you are not technical enough, not confident enough, or not ready yet, this conversation is the one to listen to. Connect with Carmel Peinke on LinkedIn · E-Route to Market - Business Intelligence Platform · Smollan Group - FMCG Sales and Marketing · Pioneer Foods South Africa · Connect with Petro · Solid Gold Podcasts ## #047 Owning Your Financial Future | Ann Wilson - Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/047-owning-your-financial-future/ - Date: 2026-03-05 (as at 2026-03-05) - Guest: Ann Wilson - Host: Petro du Pisani - Themes: Rich versus wealthy, Women and financial power, Investing simply and consistently, Paying yourself first, Enough number and worthiness, Making the career leap, Financial freedom and legacy - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1652654 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Ann Wilson - best-selling author, speaker, and financial empowerment activist · South Africa - Also known as The Wealth Chef. Trained as a civil engineer, she managed billion-dollar projects around the world, yet found herself struggling with debt and financial confusion before learning how to create wealth. - Links: https://go.thewealthchef.com/change In their own words: > "So I did get my pilot, private pilot's license as a point. I've never become a helicopter pilot," [01:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=91) > "So I did civil engineering, didn't particularly enjoy it, but I learned that I had the tenacity to, you know, push through." [03:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=228) > "And just so you know, I'm now, I'm going into my 20th year of being financially free, which is amazing, which is means for 20 years I've had enough assets to pay for my lifestyle indefinitely for the rest of my life." [14:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=866) > "It is a long haul, but compounding, and that's the reason why I share that I became financially free in just eight years. Some people might go, eight years? You know, I want to get there in eight months. I go, well, less than 4% of the population get there in their life." [23:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1422) > "And so, you know, creating my own financial freedom allowed me to then explore a whole lot of other aspects around life, freedom, expression, you know, and so that's when the wealth shift, created online marketing, books followed, and TV series." [37:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2240) > "I am South African, and I came back to South Africa having lived 17 years all over Different place in the world." [48:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2925) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Petro du Pisani talks with Ann Wilson, known as The Wealth Chef, a former civil engineer who says she has been financially free for nearly 20 years. Ann describes falling into debt despite a good salary and seeing her marriage break up. She then learned that earning money and building wealth are different things. She argues that women have been kept out of long-term wealth building and are often sold complexity by the financial industry. Her advice is to pay yourself first, invest consistently in low-cost index trackers and know your 'enough number'. She also covers how to prepare for a career leap, separating self-worth from money, and her views on freedom and legacy. **Key ideas** - Ann argues that earning money and creating wealth are different: wealth comes from directing money flow into assets that grow in value or generate income without your involvement. ([09:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=587) [11:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=673) [12:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=748) [12:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=773)) - Ann says women have long managed short-term household money but have been excluded from long-term asset ownership, which is where real power sits. ([05:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=332) [08:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=504) [19:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1162)) - Ann holds that the belief that investing is complicated is a myth fed by an industry that benefits from fear. Consistent investing in low-cost index trackers is enough. ([15:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=943) [15:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=943) [17:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1067) [20:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1242) [21:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1287)) - Paying yourself first, Ann argues, means converting some income into assets. She applies the same principle to time and energy. ([24:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1466) [24:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1477) [25:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1520) [25:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1541)) - Ann says power in relationships should come from control of assets and agency, not from who earns the income. ([28:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1692) [29:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1747)) - Knowing your 'enough number', individually and as a family, is central to Ann's approach, as is separating self-worth from money and status. ([31:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1910) [42:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2548) [43:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2639) [44:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2677)) - Ann says financial freedom removes money and time as excuses, which forces you to face what you really want to do. ([35:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2126) [37:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2240)) **Preparing financially to leave a job and start a business** ([39:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2349) [39:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2349) [40:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2435) [41:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2469) [41:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2487)) 1. Build a certain level of financial safety; you do not need to be fully financially free first. 2. Know what money is coming in and going out, and your baseline needs. 3. Treat it as a business, not a hobby: set metrics, break-even point and a timeframe. 4. Keep a cash buffer so the business need not pay you for about a year. 5. Lighten your load by cutting discretionary spending during the transition. 6. Do the inner work of facing fear of failure, rejection and not being good enough. **Lessons** - Ann's view is that increasing income alone does not create wealth; some of the money must be turned into assets. ([09:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=587) [11:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=673) [12:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=773)) - Ann advises that simple, consistent, automated index investing is enough and that products promising special returns should be avoided. ([20:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1242) [21:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1269) [54:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=3288)) - Ann says to start the investing habit now, however small the amount. ([24:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1477) [26:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1617)) - The host advises women to know what is happening in their finances and not hand control to anyone else. ([21:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1313) [27:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1642)) - Ann says to work out your enough number before building a financial plan. ([31:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1910)) - Ann says to build a cash buffer and cut discretionary spending before making a career leap. ([39:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2349) [41:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2469) [41:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2487)) **Who it's for:** Women, and anyone, who earn well but feel unsure about investing, rely on partners or advisors for money decisions, or are considering leaving a job to start a business and want Ann Wilson's view on building assets. **Facts stated in the episode** - Ann says she is going into her 20th year of being financially free. ([14:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=866)) - Ann says she became financially free in eight years, and that less than 4% of the population get there. ([23:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1422)) - Ann says she has about 28 years in investing. ([18:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1119)) - Ann says she lived 17 years abroad before returning to South Africa. ([48:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2925)) - Ann has homes in the Kruger National Park and Cape Town. ([49:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2951)) - Ann spends about an hour on her personal finances, with most of her wealth in broad market index trackers. ([54:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=3288)) - The host says a stockbroker sold her Steinhoff shares. ([22:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1356)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: What is the difference between being rich and being wealthy?** A: Ann says riches are visible status spending, while wealth is a bank of assets such as shares and property. These grow in value or generate income without you working for it. Wealthy people focus first on building assets rather than on getting more money. ([11:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=673) [12:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=748) [12:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=773)) **Q: What's the first step toward financial freedom?** A: Ann says to keep some of the money you make and invest it. The investing habit matters most. Even ten rand or five dollars is a step and a mindset shift. ([24:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1466) [24:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1477) [26:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1617)) **Q: What does paying yourself first actually mean?** A: According to Ann, it does not mean paying yourself a salary. It means some money stays in your life and is converted into an asset that works for you for life. ([25:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1520)) **Q: Do I need a financial advisor to invest?** A: Ann is sceptical. She says most people called financial advisors are low-level salespeople selling poor products, and that an advisor cannot give you a wealth plan. She teaches consistent investing in low-cost index trackers. ([20:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1242) [21:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1269) [31:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1861)) **Q: Why do women tend to be less involved in long-term investing?** A: Ann argues women have historically handled short-term household money but been excluded from assets and investing. She adds that many were socialised to want rescuing, so they outsource finances and get lower returns. ([08:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=504) [18:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1119) [19:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1162)) **Q: How much money do I need before quitting my job to start a business?** A: Ann says you need not be financially free. She advises knowing your money flows, setting business metrics and building a cash buffer so the business need not pay you for about a year. She also advises cutting discretionary spending. ([39:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2349) [39:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2349) [41:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2469) [41:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2487)) **Q: Should I aim to leave my kids a large inheritance?** A: Ann says she does not believe in large financial legacies. She suggests giving children the skills to feel confident and safe around money rather than the money itself. ([51:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=3100)) **Q: How long does it take to become financially free?** A: Ann says she became financially free in eight years through compounding. She notes that less than 4% of the population get there in their lifetime and warns against quick-win thinking. ([23:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1422) [24:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1448)) ### Passage: From debt and divorce to discovering investing [05:32–08:41, 620 words] Note (AI): Ann's own account of how debt, a broken marriage and deprivation led her to see investing and assets as the missing piece, especially for women. Ann Wilson, guest [05:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=332): > So there had been these micro steps, which I think led me to orient towards I don't want to be dependent on somebody else. I don't want to be vulnerable. I don't want to end up in a park bench in my old age, hoping that somebody else will look after me. that there was nothing free in that. I had got into a debt hole and realized like, hang on, there's no freedom in this. If I didn't stop work, if I, if something happened to me and I, and I didn't have the money, I was literally now working for everybody else except myself. So this illusion of freedom that came with money. And so I realized, okay, work hard, get a good job. Great. Money's coming in. Gee, don't get into debt. So these pieces of these puzzles started coming together. But I was then actually working in Hong Kong. I traveled there and it was all now about how do I work really hard? How do I spend as little as I can? Deprive myself because there was also an aspect of almost shaming. If I have no needs, no wants, and if I can keep as much money as I want, then I won't go into debt. I'll save money. And then eventually, at some point, I'll be able to do what I want to do. But for firstly, hopefully some point I'll feel safe. Because I think it's important we have the safety conversation, especially as women, which I don't think is brought into enough of, and, and, and it's, and the need for safety, emotional safety, financial safety, before we can even talk about power and self-expression and anything else, because it's a foundational aspect. So there were these components, and I realized looking back, I first wanted to be safe. But everything I was doing was contracting. It was just Not nice. I don't think I became a particularly nice person. So my marriage broke up. It was all about what we couldn't do, what we couldn't have, future side. And the money I'd been holding on to and the favors all walked out the door. And it was really a pivotal point. I was just turning, going into my thirties and went, wow, you know, I thought I was doing the right thing. I was working hard. I had the good job. I thought I was, you know, saving and not being frivolous and being like a woman, you know. A lot of the shaming language that we're also given shouldn't design anything. But shit, this didn't feel like a successful life. And that was the real point when I went, hang on, there has to be an end. Surely there's a way for me to feel financially safe and do some of the things I want to do and feel self-expressed. And so then I went, and I also knew there was a deep link with, with money and just what I did and didn't know about it. And so this was the point where I had to hang on. What has my education not taught me? What has my growing up not taught me? What's my exposure? And as a woman, fascinatingly, Petro, women are, and through centuries, are very good at the short-term money management. So often have been the one who's been responsible for the household budget, making the most of, you know, the food bill and that. But longer-term financial well-being, specifically, let's talk about assets, investing, control over where real wealth sits, as opposed to money management, is a world that most women have been excluded from because it's actually where the real power sits. ### Passage: The difference between being rich and being wealthy [11:13–13:18, 382 words] Note (AI): Sets out Ann's core distinction: status spending versus owning assets that grow in value or generate income without the owner's effort. Ann Wilson, guest [11:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=673): > maybe let me start with what I sort of see as the difference between maybe being rich versus being wealthy. So riches or richness, or often we, we are a society and we use our visual senses explicitly to validate our world. So things that we can tangibly see, and we see this more and more now, we talk about sex, success and, and power. what car does that person drive? What home do they live in? What holidays they have? What does their Instagram feed look like? What does their jewelry, their handbag, all of the status signaling that we have? And so we go, oh, well that must be rich and, and around whatever our value structure is. Maybe the kids go to a certain school. And then so we see this, this relationship with money, buying something. So we think that is, well, so if we have more money, we can have more of these things, and therefore we made it, and now we'll finally be enough and worthy and successful and safe. That the challenges we're focusing on money versus wealthy is actually when we are not having to create that money flow. So wealthy is when there's this, this bank of assets, and we can talk about actual financial assets. So owning and controlling shares in companies, real estate that can grow in value. So an asset is something that can grow in value and or generate income, not necessarily both, preferably both. So it grows in capital value, it can generate income without us having to be involved in that exchange. So the wealth comes from we are, we get to control those. And so it's like this vast resource of teams creating and generating money that we're going to get to use. But this is the difference. Wealthy people understand that they need to focus first on building the assets. People who will constantly stay chasing riches will focus on how do I get money. And this can then be expanded in so many ways. And this is really such a foundational difference. It's why, yes, we need to be investing. We've got to take some of the money we have and turn that into assets. Because without doing that, you will never be wealthy. ### Passage: Unlearning the myth that investing is complicated [15:43–17:34, 330 words] Note (AI): Explains how fear, the appeal of complexity and scam culture keep people from simple investing, as Ann sees it. Ann Wilson, guest [15:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=943): > I think one of the biggest and hardest ones for us to unlearn is our, our fixation with complexity. And so when it comes to investing and managing money, we've been fed a whole lot of BS by an industry that wants us, or humans, with, you know, the, the population, but majority women. To feel afraid that they're going to fuck this up. And just so that there's a double-edged sword here. So one, there's an industry that wants people to be afraid because then it's like, well, this is so fundamentally important because money weaves through every aspect of our life. And one of the greatest fears that people have is ending up destitute, ending up on a park bench and, and, you know, having to, you know, and being almost the ultimate failure in life because money not only gives us all of these external things, but defines our worthiness, our sense of self-esteem, purpose, blah, blah, blah. So it does weave through all these things. So now, if we mess up the money management, all heaven forbid, the investing, then what does that say about us? And so there's this aspect that one, it must be complicated, scary, gonna get it wrong, overwhelming. We fade that, but we also love to think that something that's more complicated must be better. You know, the next thing, more buttons. And so there's these Things that also drive fear and greed that make people think it's more complicated than it is. So there's something telling them it is more complicated, but going, oh, well, it must. But also the third thing that this comes, it impacts is makes people vulnerable to the hustle or the scam culture or, hey, I've just discovered this special secret that's going to give you the hack that this weekend you do this and you will be the few who ride the wave of this one investment, where people then fall for the scam. ### Passage: Paying yourself first as a habit and mindset [24:26–27:16, 505 words] Note (AI): Ann's first-step advice: keep and invest part of what you earn, and apply the same priority to time, money and energy. Ann Wilson, guest [24:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1466): > It'll say, and this is very much for women. If you Have to keep some of the money that you make. First step, and then and invest it. The investing habit, and it's a habit, is the most important one because it's not just about that seed of money, because it needs time. It needs to, it's like a seed that gets planted, it then grows in value. That money grows in value and compounding starts working. So now you've got time working for you, but there is a radical mental shift that happens when you say, not only there is enough for me to keep some of my life, but also my financial wellbeing matters, and it's the most important bill I pay first. So paying yourself first is a phrase that's used a lot, but it's deeply misunderstood. And as business owners, many people think, oh, well, that means I pay myself a salary. No, no. Paying yourself first means the, some of that money stays in your life and it gets converted into an asset that will work for you for the rest of your life. It stays in your life and grows. But there's a deeper side, because this gain comes to our power, our agency. Because then we can say, well, how am I paying myself first? We've all got three ingredients. Just three inputs to create the lived experience we have. We've got our time, our money, and our energy, basically our life force. That's all. Money is just a proxy for value that we get to exchange. That's what it is. If we are not prepared to pay ourselves first, time, money, and energy in our life, and then we wonder why we're not, why we're resentful, exhausted, we're not getting the results we want, always look there. Where are you putting your energy? Are you spending some of your energy on the projects, the things that you say Important to you. Are you putting some of that money into your financial wellbeing and ensuring your financial future is in place? Are you spending your time on the things that matter and you first? And as women, if you're not prepared to do that, this radical shift can feel so selfish. People say, but, but Ann, I've got to look after the kids, I've got to pay the school fees, I've got to do this. everybody else first. And again, we're taught, we're taught that being a good girl means sacrifice, martyrdom. We've been passed this martyrish story down into generation, and we're the first generation that had the full resources to do it, but we've got to change the pattern. And so this is the most radical important step. And whether it's ten rand, five dollars, it, it doesn't matter. It's, it's a, it's a step. It's a mindset shift, and then it's a habit. It's a discipline that no matter what, these things come before everything else, and that muscle starts growing. And that changes everything. ### Passage: How to prepare financially before leaving a job [39:09–41:23, 468 words] Note (AI): Practical steps for anyone considering a business: know money flows, set metrics, treat it as a business, and build a year's cash buffer. Ann Wilson, guest [39:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2349): > You don't have to wait until you're financially free to start a business or do those passions. I think it is to go, I think it is important that we have a certain level of financial safety. So a lot of people want to start a business or transition and they, they fed a lot of stories like leap and the parachute will open. No, sometimes it doesn't. Don't be fucking stupid. You know, no, there is, and so there is aspects of financial wellbeing. It doesn't have to be financially free, but if somebody wants to start a business, know what do you need? What is going to be your baseline? Do you have a relationship with your money where you know what's coming in and what's going out? Because if you don't, It's like having staff that you don't know what their job is, and you're paying them every month. I mean, that's just not a good business owner. You know, money is a resource. You need to know, are you directing it, where it's coming from, where it's going? Because then you have a choice, and you then can say, okay, how many months am I going to give myself? What are my metrics? What is going to be success? And this is super important that we actually know what, and when it comes to creating a business, I was very, very clear with myself that this was not a charity, and that also I had to apply the same principles that the, the business needed to be a financial success. It needed to be self-sustaining because I was, I wanted to employ people, there was agency around this, and it not, must not need me to, you know, feed it as And there's nothing wrong if people want a hobby, but then be honest and it's a hobby. Don't call it a business. And so if it's a business, you know what its metrics are, and you know what is needed to break even, to pay certain amounts, and how long is that going to take you, and what is the plan to get there. And it might have variables, but then in your personal financial position to able to make that jump, say, okay, let me give myself a contingency. If you're building a home, you'll know what your budget is, how many rooms it's going to have, what's your contingency you have, and then you work within that. The business is the same. And then say, okay, well, I'm going to make sure that my business is free of the burden of having to pay me for, let's say, a year. So how much money do I need for that year? Let me make sure I've got that cash buffer in place. ### Passage: The enough rock and separating worth from money [42:28–44:48, 513 words] Note (AI): A personal story of how Ann dealt with feeling not enough, which she says enabled her leap into the Wealth Chef business. Ann Wilson, guest [42:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2548): > But I was sitting and I realized I was just moving the deck chairs. I kept doing another course. I kept waiting for this. I wasn't quite ready. Let me move these things. And I sat and went, hang on, what is going on? And it, and I sat and I felt in my, in my body, there was this felt like this big rock inside of me. Every time that, like, that knot in my stomach, I went, you know, it was like I'd found this perfect piece of land to build my beautiful home in the most idyllic place. I had everything available, but there was this big frigging boulder in the middle of that field. And so now I needed, I needed to get rid of it. And I'd bought into this story in a way that, you know, the next thing to be healed or sorted or, or the not enough, not really enough. So this next thing to just avoid. So I went, well, what if I don't have to get rid of this? I don't have to get rid of the not, my not enoughness. What if it's just going, well, I can build my home around it. I can make a feature. I can make it beautiful. I don't have to coat it over. And I think, you know, I'm going to go off, I was living in Paris. I'm going to go off and find a stone to represent this. And I went off with my dog. She was loving. She has a midday walk. And, then I started looking down and there was these stones all over the place. I was going, but which is the right one? I mean, this is important. I mustn't get it wrong. And then eventually about 20 minutes in, I went, oh my God, I'm getting hooked again. And I looked down and I said, okay, whichever stone is nearest to me. And there were two there. Oh, you've got to be joking, universe. I picked them up. I said, threw them up. Whichever one lands close is going to be good enough. And I carry, I still have that rock 15 years down the line. No, not quite. 12 years down the line. And I call it my little enough rock. And it's a reminder that I'm never going to feel. And that's okay, because there's nothing outside of me that can make me enough. And this relates to our money as well and our business, and it's okay to feel that fear and get hooked into those status things and stuff. It's not a judgment, it's just part of one of our, some of our human needs. But when I could separate out my desire for expression, curiosity to create side from my sense of deep worthiness, and realize, oh, there is no amount of money we can have, there's no outfit we can have, there's no nails that can ever define my enough, because it's not definable by something outside of us. We already are. ### Quotes > "I was literally now working for everybody else except myself. So this illusion of freedom that came with money." > — Ann Wilson, guest · [05:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=357) > "Nobody can look at me wandering down the street, generally looking like a bag lady most of the time and say, this is what her net worth is." > — Ann Wilson, guest · [13:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=801) > "I go, no, you just pre-sold a fucking lucky packet with nothing in it." > — Ann Wilson, guest · [21:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1269) > "consistency and boring is beautiful. It really is when it comes to investing in your finance." > — Ann Wilson, guest · [21:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1287) > "It's the lottery mentality. It's the quick win, which guarantees you'll have poverty for life." > — Ann Wilson, guest · [24:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1448) > "Money is just a proxy for value that we get to exchange." > — Ann Wilson, guest · [25:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1552) > "if you are not financially empowered, you will be overpowered." > — Ann Wilson, guest · [28:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1692) > "leap and the parachute will open. No, sometimes it doesn't. Don't be fucking stupid." > — Ann Wilson, guest · [39:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2363) > "there's nothing wrong if people want a hobby, but then be honest and it's a hobby. Don't call it a business." > — Ann Wilson, guest · [40:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2435) > "Because that's what having assets doing the work gives us the, the gift of our time, which is the most precious thing we have, yet is the thing we squander the most." > — Ann Wilson, guest · [47:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2865) > "the Good Samaritan needed money to be the Good Samaritan. We need, as women, money also to be able to express these things, not just our time." > — Ann Wilson, guest · [52:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=3171) ### Claims > "So I did get my pilot, private pilot's license as a point. I've never become a helicopter pilot," > — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Origin story · [01:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=91) > "I chose engineering, not because I, I gave a shit how a piece of steel bent or a cube crushed. It was because my father had died short, shortly before I went to university." > — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Origin story · [02:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=158) > "So I did civil engineering, didn't particularly enjoy it, but I learned that I had the tenacity to, you know, push through." > — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Origin story · [03:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=228) > "So I went into a very big debt hole, and that's really when, I guess, the inquiry for me started becoming, hang on, what is the difference between being financially empowered versus earning money?" > — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Rich versus wealthy · [04:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=291) > "So my marriage broke up. It was all about what we couldn't do, what we couldn't have, future side. And the money I'd been holding on to and the favors all walked out the door." > — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Turning point · [07:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=430) > "But longer-term financial well-being, specifically, let's talk about assets, investing, control over where real wealth sits, as opposed to money management, is a world that most women have been excluded from because it's actually where the real power sits." > — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Women and financial power · [08:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=504) > "Earning money and creating wealth are completely different things. You need healthy money flow. So where you need money flowing through your life, but it's how that is then directed determines whether you get to live and create a wealthy life." > — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Rich versus wealthy · [09:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=587) > "So an asset is something that can grow in value and or generate income, not necessarily both, preferably both. So it grows in capital value, it can generate income without us having to be involved in that exchange." > — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Rich versus wealthy · [12:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=748) > "Wealthy people understand that they need to focus first on building the assets. People who will constantly stay chasing riches will focus on how do I get money." > — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Rich versus wealthy · [12:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=773) > "And just so you know, I'm now, I'm going into my 20th year of being financially free, which is amazing, which is means for 20 years I've had enough assets to pay for my lifestyle indefinitely for the rest of my life." > — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Financial freedom and legacy · [14:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=866) > "I think one of the biggest and hardest ones for us to unlearn is our, our fixation with complexity. And so when it comes to investing and managing money, we've been fed a whole lot of BS by an industry that wants us, or humans, with, you know, the, the population, but majority women." > — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Investing simply and consistently · [15:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=943) > "Because it's simple, it's not simplistic. Because it's simple doesn't mean it's easy. It's not complicated. It's like we all pretty much know if you want to lose weight, you need fewer calories, then your body's burning." > — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Investing simply and consistently · [17:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1067) > "And 20 odd years, 28 years odd in investing, being in this world, I still have to be careful of, of the part of me that wants to be rescued." > — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Women and financial power · [18:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1119) > "this is why most women would prefer to outsource their financial wellbeing to a partner, to a financial advisor. They'll say, oh, I just don't have the time. It's too busy, overwhelming. Which is why Most women are getting significantly lower returns than they should be on their portfolios that they do have invested." > — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Women and financial power · [19:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1162) > "You know, one of the things I teach in, in my Wealth Builder Club and through you've read the Wealthy Book is consistent regular investing in a low cost index tracker. That sounds as boring as hell. Is going to get you there." > — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Investing simply and consistently · [20:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1242) > "And after month three, I was like, hold on a second, I'm paying you and you're not performing well because I've been told that I should have ETFs, which is your, your, I read somewhere that they consistently beat the markets." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Investing simply and consistently · [21:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1313) > "At the same time, that same stockbroker sold Steinhoff to me, so I was really angry with him like about two or three months, two or three years later, you know?" > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Investing simply and consistently · [22:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1356) > "It is a long haul, but compounding, and that's the reason why I share that I became financially free in just eight years. Some people might go, eight years? You know, I want to get there in eight months. I go, well, less than 4% of the population get there in their life." > — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Financial freedom and legacy · [23:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1422) > "The investing habit, and it's a habit, is the most important one because it's not just about that seed of money, because it needs time. It needs to, it's like a seed that gets planted, it then grows in value." > — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Paying yourself first · [24:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1477) > "Paying yourself first means the, some of that money stays in your life and it gets converted into an asset that will work for you for the rest of your life." > — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Paying yourself first · [25:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1520) > "We've all got three ingredients. Just three inputs to create the lived experience we have. We've got our time, our money, and our energy, basically our life force. That's all." > — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Paying yourself first · [25:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1541) > "And whether it's ten rand, five dollars, it, it doesn't matter. It's, it's a, it's a step. It's a mindset shift, and then it's a habit." > — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Paying yourself first · [26:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1617) > "Absolutely need to know, and don't hand it over to anybody else. Okay, don't expect that somebody else is going to be managing, even if you join, if you, if you're jointly putting stuff together, really know what's going on." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Women and financial power · [27:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1642) > "often what you'll see is the, there's an unconscious, story that the person who earns the money has the power. So that earner, power comes with earning. And we have to rewrite that because no, power comes with Control of assets and agency." > — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Women and financial power · [29:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1747) > "Don't ask any financial advisor any question because most of the, most things that are called financial advisors are odd, low-level salespeople selling people crap products, quite frankly." > — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Investing simply and consistently · [31:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1861) > "And with that, start saying, then it's first understanding what we want, then working on, well, what does that actually mean for individually, but also as a family unit, what I call our enough numbers. We've got to know our numbers." > — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Enough number and worthiness · [31:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1910) > "There was a period I realized, oh my God, I thought I needed to be like this fake male in order to be okay in this, you know, many days I was the only woman in the room and big projects." > — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Women and financial power · [34:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2074) > "And we all go, oh yes, because money and time are such convenient excuses for us to not do the things we say we want to do. So now when you give yourself financial freedom, those two excuses are ripped out from under you." > — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Making the career leap · [35:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2126) > "And so, you know, creating my own financial freedom allowed me to then explore a whole lot of other aspects around life, freedom, expression, you know, and so that's when the wealth shift, created online marketing, books followed, and TV series." > — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Making the career leap · [37:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2240) > "You don't have to wait until you're financially free to start a business or do those passions. I think it is to go, I think it is important that we have a certain level of financial safety." > — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Making the career leap · [39:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2349) > "And then say, okay, well, I'm going to make sure that my business is free of the burden of having to pay me for, let's say, a year. So how much money do I need for that year? Let me make sure I've got that cash buffer in place." > — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Making the career leap · [41:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2469) > "I always say to people, any transition, lighten your load. Lighten your load. Cut back the shit that is discretionary." > — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Making the career leap · [41:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2487) > "And I carry, I still have that rock 15 years down the line. No, not quite. 12 years down the line. And I call it my little enough rock." > — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Enough number and worthiness · [43:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2639) > "there is no amount of money we can have, there's no outfit we can have, there's no nails that can ever define my enough, because it's not definable by something outside of us." > — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Enough number and worthiness · [44:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2677) > "we've got a, a lot of people in our Wellful the Club who are financially free, who now got that, but they stay in. And we have a session we call those, those groups, the Feasters, because we're at the feasting phase." > — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Financial freedom and legacy · [47:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2825) > "I am South African, and I came back to South Africa having lived 17 years all over Different place in the world." > — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Financial freedom and legacy · [48:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2925) > "And so I have a beautiful home in the Kruger National Park, where there's been crazy floods. So freedom means that I can contribute to things that are, deeply passionate about conservation, and anti-poaching and preservation" > — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Financial freedom and legacy · [49:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2951) > "I go, why, why would you be so cruel? Why would you take away the opportunity for your children to self-express, to explore? Money is just a value exchange. Why don't you, instead of giving them money, give them the skills to feel confident, safe, and supportive around this means to express themselves?" > — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Financial freedom and legacy · [51:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=3100) > "You know, Petro, I maybe spend an hour on my personal financial stuff these days. I keep having to remind myself not to fiddle, don't overcomplicate. Bulk of my, my wealth is sits in broad market index trackers and it's good enough because the point is to get out there and live." > — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Investing simply and consistently · [54:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=3288) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) How women can take control of their financial destiny. This is the fifth episode of the Powerful Women series of On Change, where we celebrate trail-blazing and visionary women who have chose to lead on their own terms. In this episode, Petro du Pisani speaks with Ann Wilson, best-selling author, speaker, and financial empowerment activist, also known as The Wealth Chef. Ann’s journey to financial freedom began unexpectedly. Trained as a civil engineer, she managed billion-dollar projects around the world. Yet despite her professional success, she found herself struggling with debt and financial confusion. That realisation sparked a powerful personal transformation, from earning income to learning how to create wealth. In this conversation, Ann unpacks the critical difference between being rich and being wealthy, and explains why true financial freedom comes from building assets that generate income without constant effort. She shares practical insights about investing, the power of paying yourself first, and why understanding your “enough number” is key to designing a financially free life. Ann also speaks candidly about why women have historically been excluded from wealth creation and why its essential that women take ownership of their financial futures. *** As a special gift to On Change listeners, Ann has made her 5-day Wealth-made-Simple available free of charge. Use this link to access it: https://go.thewealthchef.com/change This 5-day Wealth Made Simple Challenge is designed to help you define what ‘Wealthy’ truly means for you. Discover the precise amount of money required to live the life you desire, identify your unique financial freedom number needed to attain this lifestyle, understand what you need to be investing in to create it, learn the specific investment strategy to achieve your goals, recognise what your potential obstacles are, and master the methods to overcome them. Do the Wealth-Made-Simple Challenge · Connect with Ann · Connect with Petro · Solid Gold Podcasts ## #044 We need a new future | Carmen Murray - Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/044-we-need-a-new-future/ - Date: 2025-10-31 (as at 2025-10-31) - Guest: Carmen Murray - Host: Petro du Pisani - Themes: Authentic Intelligence Framework, Conscious Leaders movement, Futurism and shaping the future, Women in leadership, AI as a mirror, Masking and authenticity, Fear versus hope, Redefining success - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1613281 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Carmen Murray - CEO · Carmen Murray Communications - A reformed marketer and futurist who designed the Authentic Intelligence Framework and founded the Conscious LeadHERs movement; studied a postgraduate diploma at Henley Business School and trained as a numerologist. In their own words: > "in the middle of all of this, Carmen is studying her postgraduate diploma at Henley Business School, her PG dip, and studying to become a numerologist. Two very different disciplines." [08:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=539) > "that's why I started Conscious Leaders. I started it with the intent of unity. I want change agents. I want people that think like me, do things like me. I'm not in competition with you." [19:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1144) > "January, on Oprah Winfrey's birthday, unintentionally, I didn't realize it at the moment, I started Conscious Leaders in 2024." [21:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1296) > "with my podcast, I decided I'm going to change it from the Carmen Murray show and I'm going to focus on conscious leaders. And we brought so many women onto the show." [22:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1375) > "I'm a marketer, I'm a technographer, I'm a numerologist, I'm all of these amazing things, but I'm confusing people because boxy people wants boxy answers." [29:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1745) > "Faith said to me, you should definitely call yourself a futurist. I'm like, hell, I'm not a futurist, like not like that. And she says, you are, you are one." [30:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1822) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) In this episode of On Change's Powerful Women series, the host speaks with Carmen Murray, who describes herself as a marketer, technographer and numerologist moving into futurism. Carmen recounts how an autism and ADHD diagnosis, the launch of ChatGPT and her studies led her to create the Authentic Intelligence Framework, built on the idea that technology mirrors who we are. She tells how Conscious Leaders grew from a Women's Day post into a movement, and argues that women should negotiate for policy change, audit their circles for authenticity, resist fear-based decisions, and build a better future slowly and together. **Key ideas** - Carmen argues that AI mirrors humans, so working well with it requires people to become their best selves; she calls this authentic intelligence. ([08:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=539) [09:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=584) [10:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=614) [34:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=2085)) - Carmen holds that women and marketing are the two powerful forces in business because women shape culture and marketing mirrors it. ([04:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=269)) - Carmen believes many decisions, including board decisions, are made from fear, and proposes protopia: building a better future slowly and together. ([07:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=422) [15:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=958) [16:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1000)) - Carmen says women must learn politics and negotiate for policy change, building courage from the inside out like an egg cracked from within. ([23:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1422) [24:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1445) [24:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1468)) - Carmen distinguishes conscious, rigid and adaptive authenticity and argues that in a deepfake world we must know who is real in our circles. ([24:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1487) [25:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1554) [26:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1562) [27:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1642)) - Carmen redefines success around community, not titles, and around asking better questions rather than receiving answers. ([32:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1965) [33:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=2023) [33:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=2038)) - Carmen is not anti-AI but objects to outsourcing our thinking and to an attention economy built to sell us things. ([35:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=2106) [36:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=2212) [39:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=2383)) **Authentic Intelligence Framework: seven intelligences** ([08:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=539) [10:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=614) [10:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=629)) 1. Emotional intelligence 2. Foresight intelligence 3. Spiritual intelligence 4. Culture intelligence 5. Collective intelligence 6. Creative intelligence 7. Learning intelligence, which is all about curiosity **Lessons** - Carmen suggests auditing how your career, friendships, purchases and opinions participate in systems you disagree with. ([05:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=334)) - Carmen and the host both recommend regular reflective breaks; Carmen suggests a sabbatical-type pause every five years, and the host suggests shorter daily or weekly pauses. ([12:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=764) [14:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=876) [15:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=902)) - Carmen advises questioning decisions made on autopilot and knowing your own values before choosing. ([36:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=2212) [37:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=2239)) - Carmen recommends a beginner's mindset in uncertain times, and says Conscious Leaders succeeded because she learned as she went. ([20:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1229) [32:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1965)) - Carmen urges women to negotiate beyond salary, for policy and the change they want to see. ([24:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1445)) **Who it's for:** Women leaders, marketers and change agents interested in conscious leadership, how to relate to AI without outsourcing their thinking, building women's communities, and a futurist's view of creating hopeful alternatives to fear-driven systems. **Facts stated in the episode** - Carmen says she read How to Win Friends and Influence People 13 times by age 16. ([02:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=127)) - Carmen says she started Conscious Leaders in January 2024, on Oprah Winfrey's birthday. ([21:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1296)) - Carmen says the Authentic Intelligence Framework comprises seven intelligences. ([10:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=629)) - Carmen says she meditated four hours a day during her sabbatical. ([12:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=764)) - Carmen states that 350 words, including women, female and race, have been removed from research. ([18:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1095)) - Carmen says she studied a postgraduate diploma at Henley Business School. ([08:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=539)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: What is the Authentic Intelligence Framework?** A: Carmen says it holds that to work in tandem with AI we must be our best selves, because technology mirrors who we are. It names seven intelligences: emotional, foresight, spiritual, culture, collective, creative and learning intelligence. ([08:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=539) [10:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=614) [10:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=629)) **Q: How did Carmen Murray come up with authentic intelligence?** A: Carmen says that during a midlife period, including an autism and ADHD diagnosis and studies at Henley and in numerology, ChatGPT disrupted her marketing work. She asked what the duality of artificial intelligence was and answered: authentic intelligence. ([07:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=462) [08:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=539) [09:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=565) [09:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=584)) **Q: How did the Conscious Leaders movement start?** A: Carmen says it began from a planned Women's Day 2023 post, grew as she followed her curiosity, and formally started in January 2024 on Oprah Winfrey's birthday, with the intent of unity among change agents. ([19:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1144) [20:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1229) [21:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1296)) **Q: Is Carmen Murray against AI?** A: No. Carmen says she is not anti-AI and has no problem with the tool. Her problem is how we use it, especially outsourcing our thinking, and turning AI into a god when it is mirroring us. ([34:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=2085) [35:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=2106)) **Q: What should women in positions of influence do to change systems?** A: Carmen says they should get good at politics, negotiate for policy change and not just salary, build courage from the inside out, and audit the people in their circles. ([23:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1422) [24:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1445) [24:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1468) [24:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1487)) **Q: What is protopia?** A: Carmen describes protopia as building a future slowly, a better one, together in unity and in authentic intelligence, as an alternative to either utopia or dystopia. ([16:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1000)) **Q: How should we define success in the future?** A: Carmen argues that success will be about being okay without titles, asking better questions rather than getting answers, and building face-to-face community, because success will only be achieved when we come together. ([33:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=2023) [33:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=2038)) **Q: What does it mean to be a futurist, according to Carmen Murray?** A: Carmen recounts being told that a futurist must be a seer and a sayer. She wants to alchemize trends into a better future rather than just predict it, while respecting the futurism rule not to shame the trend. ([06:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=401) [29:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1780) [30:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1822)) ### Passage: From self-audit to becoming a futurist [04:56–07:14, 450 words] Note (AI): Traces Carmen's turn from inherited plans to a personal audit and her acceptance of the futurist role as a seer and sayer. Carmen Murray, guest [04:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=296): > The first 40 years of your life is research. The next 40 years of your life is implementation. And my first 40 years I I look at everything the map and the plan that I've inherited from my parents from culture and society and I was like hang on this needs to look different. This is not my values. I don't believe in this. I don't believe in the future I'm being sold. I sometimes feel like we're being herded Into a future, and guided into a future that we can see is not a good one. And just participating in the system that is perpetuating all of these, these atrocities that we are seeing in the world. And, and taking a step back and doing an audit of my own life. How am I participating in this? Where in my career am I participating in this? Where am I participating, in the conversations, in the friends that I have, in the products that I buy, in how I voice my opinions? Those self-reflections were so important for me to really realize how deep it goes and how, how every one of us are participating in, you know, what we are seeing playing out in the world. And we might not realize it, but you can't become conscious unless you go out to go and see and go and look and you're curious. And I think for me, that is when I started realizing all these things that we're seeing in the world, and it's almost like I don't know how to explain explain it to you. I see things and my my head starts hurting. Like I'll start seeing things and I think, can nobody else see what I'm seeing? You know, this is like crazy. And then I realized that it's such a outsider journey, and it's so difficult to sometimes say what you see. And then I started making friends with futurists, and I started realizing this is normal. Nobody believes us in any way. Just speak your truth. And Faye Popcorn said it to me so beautiful. You know what, Carmen? You're not just a seer, you're a sayer. To be a futurist, you need to be a seer and a sayer. And I think that was a pivotal stage for me where I realized, hang on, this is really where I'm meant to be because that's the change I can bring into the world, is to say this is what we are seeing in the world, but how can we alchemize these trends and build a better future? Because we're building a world with fear, not with trust. And trust builds bridges, fear builds walls. ### Passage: How the Authentic Intelligence Framework was born [08:59–11:30, 396 words] Note (AI): Carmen explains the origin of her framework, its core premise that technology mirrors us, and names its seven intelligences. Carmen Murray, guest [08:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=539): > And in the middle of all of this, Carmen is studying her postgraduate diploma at Henley Business School, her PG dip, and studying to become a numerologist. Two very different disciplines. But what I learned through all of this is duality, is nothing in life exists without duality. And in this time, in this moment of complete confusion of who I am, ChatGPT launches and my entire marketing world is disrupted. Because I'm like, huh, the way I'm doing marketing is, this is not looking good for me. I'm going to have to change direction and I just like thought of just like conquer my business and all of that. And I realized, hang on. The future doesn't happen to us, we happen to the future. And this is in that pivotal moment where I said, okay, what is the duality of artificial intelligence? It's authentic intelligence. So in the age of artificial intelligence, we need authentic intelligence. That's obvious. What is authenticity? And I went down this rabbit hole. I think that's the autism part of me, just going deep, deep, deep, deep, like a nerdy into this whole world. And that's how Authentic Intelligence Framework was born. It basically says, in order for us to work in tandem with artificial intelligence, we need to be our best versions of ourselves because technology is a reflection of who we are. It's a mirror to who we are. So you need to work on yourself. And there's seven intelligences that you need to work on in order for you to lead in these times. And it's emotional intelligence, foresight intelligence, it is spiritual intelligence. It is culture intelligence, collective intelligence, creative intelligence, and then learning intelligence, which is all about the curiosity. And in diving into this and just going deeper and deeper and deeper, it has just become very prevalent to me how it shows up in strategy, how it shows up in how I even find trends, and how I look at the future. It has completely shaped the way that I build things and how I build businesses and how I help with marketing initiatives, even conscious leaders. The whole community has, has, has been built on the authentic intelligence framework. Every masterclass, every podcast, every piece of curiosity, every way that we connect as women has all been because of authentic intelligence. ### Passage: The origin and growth of Conscious Leaders [20:29–23:30, 578 words] Note (AI): Carmen tells how a Women's Day post grew into a movement of almost 7,000 and how her podcast created opportunities for women. Carmen Murray, guest [20:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1229): > Conscious Leaders is a movement. you don't need to have a membership or anything. Yeah, you just come. But anyway, I started it. I wanted to do a social media. It's actually how weird this actually worked. I wanted to do a social media post on Women's Day 2023 to say, let's be conscious leaders, happy Women's Day, something in that line. And I was like, there's a ring to this. This sounds great. But I've always in the back of my mind always wanted to start a women empowerment group. Because my industry, we have a lot of women in it, and I think it's a wonderful opportunity for us to network. And I thought, oh, you know what, let me just try and see if I can create a logo out of it, because I'm a creative. I start the other way around. And you know how they say ideas start shaping the moment, or, you know, as you start working on them, this great big idea starts being born. And I was just following the curiosity, and the more I started doing things, the more, and I started, and it was the weirdest thing. And then I get invited to this woman's event and that woman's event, and I haven't even done anything. And that whole energy and motion. Anyway, January, on Oprah Winfrey's birthday, unintentionally, I didn't realize it at the moment, I started Conscious Leaders in 2024. And it just started like, and it just started growing and growing and growing. I was like, oh my word, this is amazing. But my whole thing was, I have no idea what I'm doing. I, I don't, I'm not in corporate. I don't work in those environments with all these big words, intersectionality, and all of these buzzwords that are being used. I just want to create a platform where we as women come together without the roles and the titles, where we can just be human beings and come authentically as we are. I'm building an arc and build the arc and they will come. And now we're almost 7,000. and we, you know, in our database and all of that, it's really incredible. but I think the big thing that I've realized in terms of building this communities, you can't do it alone. Like, I need your voice and your voice and everybody else's voices in order to keep the momentum going. People only have to come and listen to Carmen Murray. They'll be bored. I mean, you'll be very bored. So it's bringing all of our voices to the table. And I, what I've really loved and enjoyed is because I, you know, with my podcast, I decided I'm going to change it from the Carmen Murray show and I'm going to focus on conscious leaders. And we brought so many women onto the show. And then afterwards, they would say, oh my gosh, I've just been invited to my second podcast, or I have just been promoted, or I've just received this opportunity, or I've just met somebody incredible because I was on the podcast. And that made me realize, you know, this is really a movement and it's making an impact. And I think that was basically that is, that is gives me all the courage to go out and keep on going, because I can see the impact that it's making, in the, in the, in the women's lives. ### Passage: Women's responsibility: politics, negotiation, inside-out courage [23:42–25:21, 303 words] Note (AI): Carmen's concrete view of what influential women should do: learn politics, negotiate for policy, and audit the people in their circles. Carmen Murray, guest [23:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1422): > We have a lot of work to do in terms of navigating politics. and be, becoming very good at politics and not under, not looking at politics as if it's what we're seeing in the world, but really knowing that we need to fight for something bigger than ourselves. I think the other thing that we really need to start working on is negotiation. Negotiation is not just about your salary. It is not just about, your own benefits, but it's how are you negotiating for policy change? How are you negotiating for the change that you want to see? and really being fearless, but audacious inside out. And I think that when you do it from that way, if it's audacious outside in, you are building something like, I like to call it, if you crack an egg from the outside, it means death. If you crack an egg from the inside, it means life. So if you build something with courage from the inside out, knowing what you're fighting for is so much easier and you have so much more, courage To see the change and be the change and actually negotiate for it. I think what we definitely need to start considering is doing audits on the people in our circles and know what they are all about, because you can't build this future with people that are all about themselves, only an individualistic. We need to start thinking bigger, because we don't have much time. I don't believe we have much time. We have a lot of work to do in a very short amount of time, and if we want to move the needle, we need to come together. And you can't build a future with people that are, that are only there to exploit, exclude, and extract. ### Passage: Types of authenticity in a post-truth world [25:54–27:37, 317 words] Note (AI): Carmen distinguishes conscious, rigid and adaptive authenticity and ties them to trust amid deepfakes and instability. Carmen Murray, guest [25:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1554): > And I understand that we have to bring our mask and we have to wear them sometimes. But I, I want to go back with this word authenticity because there's different types of authenticity. There's authenticity where you consciously authentic, meaning that I know that I need to work on myself and who I am as a person. But then there is also rigid authenticity. That is, I am who I am and I will show up and be who I am. You just get out of my way. And that rigid authenticity is not the authenticity that we can build with because you have to take your layers of your mask down, not this masked up version. And that's what I was in when I realized I've been masking my entire life. It was when I found out I had autism. So I had to go and do the work. Then there is, the authenticity where you adapt, where you are in certain rooms and you know that you can only bring that part of your authentic self, but everybody must know that when they're in contact with you, you're still the same person. And that to me is important because we have a world that is now, we are in the post-truth era 2.0 society. We have corporate unrest. I mean, we're seeing this in our trends, corporate unrest, the boycotting that is happening, there's a lot of instability, the geopolitics, all of these things, the AI and, and the deepfake world that is exploding. There is a time not so far away from here where we're not going to be able to know what's real and what's not. And we must at least be able to tell who's real and who's not in our circles because we're going to need to have people around us that we can build a new world of trust. ### Passage: Redefining success and the risk of outsourcing thinking [33:43–35:54, 365 words] Note (AI): Carmen sets out her view of success as community and better questions, and her concern about outsourcing our thinking to AI. Carmen Murray, guest [33:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=2023): > I think we're doomed if we think that we can be successful the way we've been taught. I think we're doomed, and I think we need to really get rid of that idea very quickly if we think it still exists. And just to go back, it's definitely about the beginner's mindset. I think success building in the future that we are going into is all about being okay not having titles. It's more about the questions you ask than the answers you receive. You see, we've, our systems are all about the answers now. We need to ask better questions. I think that it's the hierarchy, we need to build community. And offline community, face-to-face community, those are, those are the things that are important to create success because success will now only be achieved when we come together. There's a thing called joint up thinking, is when we become smarter when we actually join up our thinking. And we so underestimate how powerful the human mind is. And if you look at artificial intelligence, it's mirroring us. I mean, people keep on forgetting it. It comes from an authentic place. And it's, we're turning AI into a god. And so we're not even realizing how we're giving away our power. I mean, there's so many people out there that are using AI. And I'm not anti-AI. I don't have a problem with the tool. I have a problem how we use the tool. I have a problem with us outsourcing our thinking and not being able to tap into our own humanity and being willing and brave enough to go within. You know, there's a reason why not, we are 80% water, right? How much, we've only explored 5% of the ocean. That is exactly the message that the nature is giving us. You could only explore 5% of me, but you could, you're exploring space like crazy, but you can only take 5% of handling the oceans, the deepest of the oceans. So why are we not going deeper within? And so damn deep, because if you go so deep, it can only get better, and this world would be so different. ### Quotes > "You're not just a seer, you're a sayer. To be a futurist, you need to be a seer and a sayer." > — Carmen Murray, guest · [06:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=405) > "And trust builds bridges, fear builds walls." > — Carmen Murray, guest · [07:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=430) > "The future doesn't happen to us, we happen to the future." > — Carmen Murray, guest · [09:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=584) > "So in the age of artificial intelligence, we need authentic intelligence. That's obvious." > — Carmen Murray, guest · [09:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=594) > "I'm not in competition with you. You're not in competition with me. We're all on the same mission to drive a better way forward." > — Carmen Murray, guest · [19:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1156) > "I'm building an arc and build the arc and they will come." > — Carmen Murray, guest · [22:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1337) > "if you crack an egg from the outside, it means death. If you crack an egg from the inside, it means life." > — Carmen Murray, guest · [24:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1468) > "I'm confusing people because boxy people wants boxy answers." > — Carmen Murray, guest · [29:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1751) > "I think we're doomed if we think that we can be successful the way we've been taught." > — Carmen Murray, guest · [33:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=2023) > "It's more about the questions you ask than the answers you receive." > — Carmen Murray, guest · [34:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=2047) > "I'm not anti-AI. I don't have a problem with the tool. I have a problem how we use the tool." > — Carmen Murray, guest · [35:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=2106) > "Who's taking up rent space in your mind?" > — Carmen Murray, guest · [37:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=2229) ### Claims > "when I was younger, I've always wanted to be Oprah Winfrey of Africa. That was like the thing, right? And I wanted to write books, I want to travel the world, and I wanted to be on stages." > — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Origin story · [01:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=115) > "I read the book How to Win Friends and Influence People 13 times by the time I was 16. And I always looked at this book and I said, that will never be possible for me." > — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Origin story · [02:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=127) > "I then started becoming very interested in becoming a forensic auditor. And I wanted to be like finding all the bad guys and all the corrupt guys." > — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Origin story · [02:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=149) > "I just woke up one day and I was like, I don't know if I like where marketing is going. I don't know if I like where this industry is going. It's so exploitative. It extracts and it excludes without even intentionally trying to, but it's the unintended consequences of marketing." > — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Conscious marketing · [03:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=211) > "I believe that there's two powerful forces in in business and the first one is women because women shapes culture and the other one is marketing because marketing is the mirror of culture and when you use that force and to do good you can do amazing things." > — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Women in leadership · [04:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=269) > "The first 40 years of your life is research. The next 40 years of your life is implementation. And my first 40 years I I look at everything the map and the plan that I've inherited from my parents from culture and society and I was like hang on this needs to look different." > — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Futurism and shaping the future · [04:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=296) > "taking a step back and doing an audit of my own life. How am I participating in this? Where in my career am I participating in this? Where am I participating, in the conversations, in the friends that I have, in the products that I buy, in how I voice my opinions?" > — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Self-reflection · [05:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=334) > "And Faye Popcorn said it to me so beautiful. You know what, Carmen? You're not just a seer, you're a sayer. To be a futurist, you need to be a seer and a sayer." > — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Futurism and shaping the future · [06:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=401) > "how can we alchemize these trends and build a better future? Because we're building a world with fear, not with trust. And trust builds bridges, fear builds walls." > — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Fear versus hope · [07:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=422) > "this midlife crisis that I was going through, one of them was being told that I've got autism and I've got ADHD. I knew I had ADHD. That was obvious." > — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Masking and authenticity · [07:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=462) > "I think the biggest conversation that I had when I was getting diagnosed was You've been wearing a mask all this time. You've been masking. It's a big thing with women, masking, and to fit in." > — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Masking and authenticity · [08:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=524) > "in the middle of all of this, Carmen is studying her postgraduate diploma at Henley Business School, her PG dip, and studying to become a numerologist. Two very different disciplines." > — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Background · [08:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=539) > "ChatGPT launches and my entire marketing world is disrupted. Because I'm like, huh, the way I'm doing marketing is, this is not looking good for me." > — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: AI as a mirror · [09:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=565) > "The future doesn't happen to us, we happen to the future. And this is in that pivotal moment where I said, okay, what is the duality of artificial intelligence? It's authentic intelligence." > — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Authentic Intelligence Framework · [09:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=584) > "It basically says, in order for us to work in tandem with artificial intelligence, we need to be our best versions of ourselves because technology is a reflection of who we are. It's a mirror to who we are." > — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Authentic Intelligence Framework · [10:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=614) > "there's seven intelligences that you need to work on in order for you to lead in these times. And it's emotional intelligence, foresight intelligence, it is spiritual intelligence. It is culture intelligence, collective intelligence, creative intelligence, and then learning intelligence, which is all about the curiosity." > — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Authentic Intelligence Framework · [10:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=629) > "The whole community has, has, has been built on the authentic intelligence framework. Every masterclass, every podcast, every piece of curiosity, every way that we connect as women has all been because of authentic intelligence." > — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Conscious Leaders movement · [11:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=674) > "I think for me meditation is really important during my sabbatical. I know you're also big on, on these conscious moves that we need to take in our careers. I meditated for four hours a day." > — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Inner work · [12:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=764) > "I don't think it's a once-off you do in your, in your mid-forties. I think it's something you have to do every five years or, I don't know," > — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Inner work · [14:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=876) > "it's nice to have a bit of a, a longer break to reflect and do all of that, but then you have to try and sort of work shorter breaks into your actual life to make sure that you take time to pause and reflect." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Inner work · [15:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=902) > "we are all making a lot of decisions right now based on fear, because we are sold fear. And you need to get in the executive states of mind. You need to be grounded, and you can't be grounded if you don't find stillness." > — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Fear versus hope · [15:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=958) > "I think the, the, the, the big thing that we need to start thinking about is protopia. Which is building a future slowly, a better one, together in unity and in authentic intelligence." > — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Futurism and shaping the future · [16:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1000) > "there's 350 words that have been removed out of research, one of them being women, female, race, all of those, you know, biases, like crazy amounts of things have been removed." > — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: AI as a mirror · [18:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1095) > "I work in the tech world and, and experimenting and playing with it and seeing how women's voices are disappearing, on these algorithms is unbelievable." > — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Women in leadership · [18:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1121) > "that's why I started Conscious Leaders. I started it with the intent of unity. I want change agents. I want people that think like me, do things like me. I'm not in competition with you." > — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Conscious Leaders movement · [19:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1144) > "January, on Oprah Winfrey's birthday, unintentionally, I didn't realize it at the moment, I started Conscious Leaders in 2024." > — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Conscious Leaders movement · [21:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1296) > "I just want to create a platform where we as women come together without the roles and the titles, where we can just be human beings and come authentically as we are." > — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Conscious Leaders movement · [22:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1328) > "with my podcast, I decided I'm going to change it from the Carmen Murray show and I'm going to focus on conscious leaders. And we brought so many women onto the show." > — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Conscious Leaders movement · [22:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1375) > "Negotiation is not just about your salary. It is not just about, your own benefits, but it's how are you negotiating for policy change? How are you negotiating for the change that you want to see?" > — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Women in leadership · [24:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1445) > "if you crack an egg from the outside, it means death. If you crack an egg from the inside, it means life. So if you build something with courage from the inside out, knowing what you're fighting for is so much easier" > — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Women in leadership · [24:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1468) > "I think what we definitely need to start considering is doing audits on the people in our circles and know what they are all about, because you can't build this future with people that are all about themselves, only an individualistic." > — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Masking and authenticity · [24:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1487) > "there's different types of authenticity. There's authenticity where you consciously authentic, meaning that I know that I need to work on myself and who I am as a person. But then there is also rigid authenticity." > — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Masking and authenticity · [26:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1562) > "There is a time not so far away from here where we're not going to be able to know what's real and what's not. And we must at least be able to tell who's real and who's not in our circles" > — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: AI as a mirror · [27:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1642) > "we don't like what we're seeing over there, but we can build something better here. Let's build a parallel system. And I'm busy building a parallel system." > — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Futurism and shaping the future · [28:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1726) > "I'm a marketer, I'm a technographer, I'm a numerologist, I'm all of these amazing things, but I'm confusing people because boxy people wants boxy answers." > — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Background · [29:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1745) > "they say in futurism, don't shame the trend, which I totally agree with, but I think it's exceptionally hard to witness where you're seeing trends going." > — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Futurism and shaping the future · [29:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1780) > "It's my side hustle where I'm literally, I'm seeing the trends when I'm working with clients. And I know clients sometimes can't act on all of these things, but if they can't act on these things, then you know what? Then I'm going to build it in Conscious Leaders." > — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Conscious Leaders movement · [29:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1797) > "Faith said to me, you should definitely call yourself a futurist. I'm like, hell, I'm not a futurist, like not like that. And she says, you are, you are one." > — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Futurism and shaping the future · [30:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1822) > "I want to take Africa to the world. I want to take these women to the world." > — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Conscious Leaders movement · [30:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1852) > "Margaret Wheatley talks about islands of sanity. So creating islands of sanity around ourselves, like little islands of where the world is normal and in our zones of influence," > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Futurism and shaping the future · [31:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1914) > "I do believe that in this time of uncertainty, the best gift you can give yourself is to have the beginner's mindset." > — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Redefining success · [32:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1965) > "I think success building in the future that we are going into is all about being okay not having titles. It's more about the questions you ask than the answers you receive." > — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Redefining success · [33:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=2038) > "if you look at artificial intelligence, it's mirroring us. I mean, people keep on forgetting it. It comes from an authentic place. And it's, we're turning AI into a god." > — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: AI as a mirror · [34:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=2085) > "I'm not anti-AI. I don't have a problem with the tool. I have a problem how we use the tool. I have a problem with us outsourcing our thinking" > — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: AI as a mirror · [35:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=2106) > "if you are making any decisions on autopilot, I would implore you to, to reverse that. So if you're buying toothpaste on autopilot, just using an example, question why are you buying that specific toothpaste on autopilot?" > — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Conscious decisions · [36:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=2212) > "If you don't know what your own values is and what you stand for and what you don't stand for, you're making decisions blindly." > — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Conscious decisions · [37:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=2239) > "There's studies being done on neuro-colonialism, and the work that is being done to invade our thoughts, brain invasion without penetration of putting a device into your head." > — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Attention economy · [39:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=2383) > "a person like an architect that designed a bridge, millions of cars drive on this bridge every single day. It impacts millions of people. So it's looking at just becoming conscious as one person" > — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Legacy · [41:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=2480) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) On shaping the future from the inside out. This is the second episode of the Powerful Women series of On Change, where we celebrate trail-blazing and visionary women who have shattered glass ceilings, defied expectations, and have chosen to lead on their own terms. In this energetic and insightful episode, Petro du Pisani speaks to Carmen Murray, CEO of Carmen Murray Communications and the Founder of the Conscious LeadHERs movement. Carmen Murray is a reformed marketer and a futurist who wants to not only predict the future but shape it. She shares how she designed the Authentic Intelligence Framework as a counterpoint to blindly believing in AI. Her take on AI is that it mirrors human beings and that we should be feeding it with more positive and constructive messages if we want to create a more hopeful future. The conversation explores how women can disrupt without losing themselves, the importance of building inner capacity before chasing external success, and Carmen's vision for a more inclusive future. Carmen shares how the Conscious LeadHers movement was born and how it is now helping women to step into visible and meaningful leadership. "...and that's how authentic intelligence framework was born. It basically says in order for us to work in tandem with artificial intelligence, we need to be our best versions of ourselves because technology is a reflection of who we are. It's a mirror to who we are." - Carmen Murray Connect with Carmen · Connect with Petro · Solid Gold Podcasts ## #041 Special Focus on Burnout | Shannon Royden-Turner - Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/041-special-focus-on-burnout/ - Date: 2025-02-17 (as at 2025-02-17) - Guest: Shannon Royden-Turner - Host: Petro du Pisani - Themes: Defining burnout, Warning signs of burnout, Root causes of burnout, Purpose and values alignment, Stress and adaptation, Returning to work, Guest's personal backstory - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1528239 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Shannon Royden-Turner - burnout coach - Burnout coach focused on building resilient leadership, mostly in the mining, energy, and development sector, working with CEOs and top executive teams; says she has been studying human behavior for 20 years. In their own words: > "work as a burnout coach and really focusing on building resilient leadership, so mostly in, the mining, energy, and development sector." [00:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=44) > "So it's really working with CEOs and top executive teams, and it's about how do we deliver ambitious growth targets without getting burnout." [01:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=68) > "And then Long journey through all kinds of, different, but basically working on mega projects and unlocking investment into, into mega projects." [28:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1728) > "And through that, I started studying human behavior and then got into more leadership and executive coaching." [29:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1770) > "And I've been studying human behavior for 20 years, and I know that that's not true." [30:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1810) > "And then he started doing the, the more of the kind of rapid energy reset using the actuality methodology that I use." [31:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1879) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Host Petro du Pisani talks with burnout coach Shannon Royden-Turner, who works with CEOs and executive teams in mining, energy and development. Shannon describes burnout as a gradual progression that ends in crisis. She names three warning signs: scattered focus, depleted energy and withdrawn connection. She argues that burnout stems from an incomplete model of human behaviour and from misalignment with one's own values, not from workload alone. She explains her approach of realigning people with their purpose and getting them back to work quickly. She closes with her backstory: her father's death, her mother's burnout, and her husband's recovery from an autoimmune condition. **Key ideas** - Shannon argues that burnout is not just stress. It is a grading over time that moves from chronic stress to exhaustion, habitual burnout and finally a crisis of total shutdown. ([01:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=108) [01:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=108) [02:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=134) [03:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=209)) - Shannon's three indicators of approaching burnout are scattered focus, depleted energy and withdrawn connection. ([03:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=237) [04:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=281) [04:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=295)) - Shannon contends that burnout is an overwhelm of uninspiring challenges, not of workload. It comes from living by other people's values instead of your own. ([09:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=565) [10:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=649) [11:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=668) [11:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=672)) - Shannon says aligning an individual's values, job tasks and company yields maximum performance, well-being and governance. ([12:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=745) [17:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1059)) - Shannon defines stress as perceiving you are gaining what you don't want or losing what you want. Seeing positives and negatives in balance removes it. ([14:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=861) [15:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=908) [21:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1281)) - Shannon reframes burnout as a feedback loop signalling misalignment, not a weakness, and says realignment can take as little as two days. ([25:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1532) [25:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1532) [25:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1545)) - Shannon traces burnout to an incomplete model of human behaviour that separated consciousness from science. ([05:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=335) [06:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=416)) **Shannon's approach to burnout recovery and prevention** ([15:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=941) [15:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=958) [16:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1010) [17:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1059) [18:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1138) [21:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1281)) 1. Figure out the person's purpose, values and mission in life. 2. Determine whether their job is aligned with what they would love to do most. 3. If aligned, get them back to work as fast as possible as their pathway of healing. 4. Identify which root causes led to collapse, such as how tasks are delegated, and deal with them. 5. Keep the mind balanced by finding equal support for every challenge, and use feedback to stay on purpose. **Lessons** - Shannon suggests watching for scattered focus, depleted energy and withdrawal from others and yourself as early signs of burnout. ([04:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=281) [04:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=295)) - Shannon advises finding the benefit in tasks you dislike, asking how they serve what most inspires you. ([13:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=812)) - Shannon says delegating tasks in line with each person's unique mission can remove stress and lift organisational performance. ([16:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1010) [17:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1059)) - Shannon recommends looking at where you spend money and what energises you as evidence of what you truly value. ([18:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1106) [18:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1138) [23:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1401)) - The host notes that every job will include some tasks you hate, even when it largely aligns with your values. ([12:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=764)) **Who it's for:** Executives, leaders and HR professionals in high-pressure sectors such as mining and energy. Also useful for anyone who suspects they are approaching burnout or is on leave from it and wants to return to work. **Facts stated in the episode** - Shannon says that after directors aligned their job tasks with their missions, one organisation doubled its revenue in a year. ([17:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1059)) - Shannon's father was killed in a car accident when she was ten. ([26:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1601)) - Shannon says about eight hundred people lived on her family's farm. ([27:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1639)) - Shannon says she has been studying human behavior for 20 years. ([30:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1810)) - Shannon says her husband was back at work within one month and has had no symptoms a year and a half later. ([31:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1886)) - Shannon says only about 2% to 1% of people in a room report having financial independence. ([23:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1401)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: What is the difference between stress and burnout?** A: Shannon says burnout is not just stress but a grading over time. Chronic stress brings frustration and helplessness. Burnout brings emotional, physical and mental exhaustion and disengagement. A final crisis stage brings total shutdown. ([01:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=108) [01:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=108) [02:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=134) [03:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=209)) **Q: What are the early warning signs of burnout?** A: Shannon groups them into three: scattered focus, depleted energy, and withdrawn connection from others and from yourself. ([03:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=237) [04:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=281) [04:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=295)) **Q: Is burnout caused by too much work?** A: Shannon argues it isn't an overwhelm of workload but of challenges that don't inspire you. It comes from trying to live by other people's values instead of your own. ([09:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=565) [10:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=649) [11:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=668)) **Q: How can I deal with stress at its root?** A: Shannon defines stress as perceiving you are gaining something unwanted or losing something wanted. She advises seeing positives and negatives, support and challenge, gain and loss in equal balance. ([14:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=861) [15:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=908) [21:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1281)) **Q: Should someone who burned out take a long break before returning to work?** A: Shannon says that if the job aligns with what the person loves, getting back to work is their pathway of healing. She says realignment can take as little as two days. ([15:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=958) [25:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1545)) **Q: How do I figure out what my purpose or values are?** A: Shannon says your life demonstrates it. Look at where you spend money, what you always say yes to, and what leaves you energised versus exhausted. ([18:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1095) [18:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1106) [18:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1138)) **Q: Is burnout a sign of weakness?** A: Shannon says no. She calls it a feedback loop telling you that you're not aligned with your purpose. ([25:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1532) [25:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1532)) **Q: Why did Shannon Royden-Turner become a burnout coach?** A: Shannon cites her father's death when she was ten, watching her mother burn out and fall into depression, and her husband's autoimmune diagnosis and return to work. ([26:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1575) [26:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1601) [27:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1649) [29:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1776) [29:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1782)) ### Passage: The stages from stress to burnout crisis [01:48–03:42, 312 words] Note (AI): Shannon lays out her progression from basic stress through chronic stress, burnout and habitual burnout to crisis, with the symptoms at each stage. Shannon Royden-Turner, guest [01:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=108): > I mean, burnout is, you know, it's not just stress. It's, there's a kind of a, a grading that happens to somebody over time. You know, you can, we all live with the basic level of stress, which I have actually finally gotten rid of for myself. And then we get more chronic stress. It's more persistent and people start to have a, a greater sense of kind of frustration and helplessness. And then we get to burnout. And that's more where people actually just feel, you know, emotionally, physically, and mentally exhausted. And they start to kind of disengage from work and from life. So, so you can kind of be in a social situation, but you feel completely disconnected from everybody, even though, and isolated, even though you're with people, you know. And so that's more where you start to get quite severe fatigue, often feelings of inadequacy. You don't feel like you're actually performing in the way that you should, and you're constantly getting that feedback. And then you also start to get more physical symptoms, you know, a lot of tension, sleeping becomes more difficult. And then you move into the more chronic phases of that, and you get kind of habitual burnout, which is a much more chronic state of, burnout, where you just feel completely trapped in your situation, and, you know, things that you used to love doing, you just can't get yourself kind of in it anymore. And you start to numb down your feelings. And that's a critical piece where you just start to literally shut down, and then you start getting more health issues. And then finally you hit a crisis stage where it's just total shutdown, and that's more where you start to get severe anxiety, depression, and health complications. A lot of the autoimmune conditions come in at that point. ### Passage: Three warning signs: focus, energy, connection [03:57–05:02, 209 words] Note (AI): A simple three-part checklist listeners can use to spot early burnout in themselves or their teams. Shannon Royden-Turner, guest [03:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=237): > Yeah, you know, to simplify it, I've put it into three key things that you need to look for, and it's you become very scattered in your focus. You know, you can, you can know there's moments in your life and in your work where you are super razor focused, and you're just like on a mission, and you're in it, and you can do it, and you, you know, and then there's times where it just becomes completely scattered. So, so looking for where your focus is completely scattered, you kind of don't really know where you're supposed to be looking or what you're supposed to be working on. It just feels like, and no matter what you touch, it just feels like you're wheel spinning. And then the second one is just depleted energy. Basically, you have no internal source of energy anymore. And then the final one is, you know, that you withdraw connection, and that's from other people, but also from yourself, like you lose your sense of self. Who am I? Like, what am I actually doing? You know, you start asking those kind of questions. So those are really the three kind of core categories. So scattered focus, depleted energy, and withdrawn connection. ### Passage: Why living others' values scatters focus [09:25–11:07, 296 words] Note (AI): Shannon argues that workload is not the real cause of burnout. She traces it to living by other people's values and outlines the implications for delegation. Shannon Royden-Turner, guest [09:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=565): > I mean, you've covered some of it, but I'll go a little bit more deeply into the, the kind of human behavior and the science of it, I guess. So often we think, you know, it's the workload, or it's the pressure on us, or it's our desire to be perfectionist, and there's an element of that, but that's not actually the thing that makes us burnout, right? One of the things, and why we scattered focus, and you said it perfectly, is we try to live up to other people, or what other people think we should be doing. And the truth is that every single individual has a unique purpose, mission, set of values, and priorities that they live their life by. And this happens regardless of whether they're conscious of it or not. So our unconscious decision-making will still drive towards our own personal purpose, whether we know it or not, because every single thing in our life, every decision we ever make is towards what's going to get us more benefits than drawbacks in what is most meaningful to us as an individual. So when we recognize that and understand it, we delegate differently, because then it's about trying to understand what each person's unique contribution is, and how do we match the challenges and the job tasks to that. So one of the causes of, we spoke about scattered focus, right? You're going to get a scattered focus when you're trying to live in other people's values rather than your own. That's the thing that's going to scatter you. So you're trying to please that one and please that one rather than being integral to what you are here to do, because that's the root of your highest level of performance. ### Passage: Getting burnt-out executives back to work [15:41–17:51, 378 words] Note (AI): Explains her return-to-work approach and gives a client case in which realigning delegation was followed by the organisation doubling its revenue. Shannon Royden-Turner, guest [15:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=941): > So the reason that I focus on, I mean, is to, if you completely burnt out and you're on sabbatical, then a hundred percent it's, the first part of getting you back to work is really figuring out what your purpose is, what your values are, what your mission is in life. And if that job is actually aligned with what you would love to do most, then getting you back to work is your pathway of healing. Because as soon as we're doing what we love, we waken up the part of us that is wellness, right? That is performance. So the faster that somebody can be doing that, if you take that away from somebody, they will decay. Because when we, when we don't have purpose in our lives, we have disease, we have decay, we have, you know, we don't know what to do with ourselves. So the first step is really to determine, is this the pathway of your greatest mission in life? If it is, it's how do we get you back there as fast as possible and identify what of these root causes were playing out that had you collapse, and then deal with those. And often it's just, you know, like the one person who was completely, in chronic burnout and had a degenerative autoimmune condition. When we went in and looked, it was really just how tasks were being delegated from the, the director. And then there had been a whole lot of stresses that happened. His mother had dementia, he moved home, his wife's job, you know, got, lost. And so there were a whole lot of stresses that he was struggling to adapt to. So as soon as we could look at, you know, how do we delegate differently so that you can do what you love, because his, he loved his job, but he was just being pushed to do commercial business development when actually what he wanted to do and what he was really fricking amazing at was something completely different. And so as soon as we got all the directors to figure out what their individual mission was and align their job task with that, the whole organization literally doubled in revenue in a year. ### Passage: Father's death, the farm and mother's burnout [26:15–28:46, 487 words] Note (AI): The formative story behind Shannon's focus on leadership under disruption and on burnout. Shannon Royden-Turner, guest [26:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1575): > Awesome. I've, I've had to dig through my entire life to try and figure out what, you know, all of the challenges are that happened to me and what's the reason, what was the purpose of all of those life events, because your life is the story of your purpose. Every trauma, every challenge that you've ever been through is something that is awakening in you a desire to make a difference. And so when I went back and looked at, you know, when I was ten, my father was killed in a car accident, and it was, because it was a car accident, it was obviously very sudden. And, it happened at Easter time. And at that beginning of the year, my older sister and my two younger brothers had all gone to boarding school. So we lived on a farm in Grayton, in the middle of nowhere. And literally one day we woke up and my mom and I, I was ten, my mom and I woke up and we were like on the farm on our own. And she's like, hello world, this is interesting. And it was a very complex operation because it was sugar, wattle, pine, gum, avos, oranges, nachis, and there were like eight hundred people living on the farm. And it was the two of us like, oh, hello. It had a huge impact on my mom and, and I watched her burn out. I watched her go into depression. And interestingly, I've done work with her over the last year, which has just been the most beautiful journey to help her make sense of her own life. And one of the things she said, cause she went into severe, depression and, and suicide. And it was so interesting because she said the reason that that happened was we got my uncle to come and live on the farm and we moved into town because everybody said it was too dangerous for us to be living there. And suddenly she had no purpose and she was like, well, what am I going to do? And that for her was like, I may as well not be living. So I guess that really woke in me two parts around how do we build leaders who are able to deal with that level of disruption. And be able to adapt to change without burning out, without going into depression, because the impact is huge. And I was bearing the impact. My little ten-year-old mind was like, the only way I'm out of here is if this woman keeps, basically keeps her shit together. Otherwise, I'm in trouble. And so, yeah, I guess that kind of awoke in me a, a massive drive to deal with leadership and to, you know, in high stakes environment, because the stakes were high, right? We had like 800 people that we had to feed every day. ### Passage: Husband's autoimmune diagnosis and return to work [29:36–31:38, 358 words] Note (AI): The turning point that led Shannon to specialise in burnout. It includes her claims about recovery using her methodology. Shannon Royden-Turner, guest [29:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1776): > And then two years ago was another major shift in, in my journey where, my husband literally over the period of a week lost all the, all the feeling in his arms and legs and couldn't get up a flight of stairs. But I mean, the weekend before he was riding his mountain bike. So it was like, boom, what just happened? And that really took us kind of through a whole massive journey, but he was diagnosed with an autoimmune condition that's, degenerative and doesn't have a cure. And I've been studying human behavior for 20 years, and I know that that's not true. I know that there are limitations to the medical understanding because of what I was saying earlier, because we don't understand consciousness. So any medical condition that has that involved Is, they don't know what the cause of it is, so they don't even try and deal with the cause. They can deal with the symptoms. Oh, you have no feeling in your legs and arms. We can deal with that. And so the cure for it was literally a lifetime of going into hospital every, two weeks and getting a drip. And probably would, I mean, would never be able to work at his career capacity, again. So he's a director in an, in architecture practice that's on a rapid growth mission. So I started working with him and, you know, the first thing was to get him back to work because I know that he absolutely loves his work. And so getting him back to work, dealing with the delegation, so, you know, I've been working in his organization for the last year, just restructuring all of the, the kind of, higher level stuff. So within one month, he was back at work. And then he started doing the, the more of the kind of rapid energy reset using the actuality methodology that I use. And literally within one month, he was back at work, back on his mountain bike, completely cured a year and a half later still, has had no symptoms. And this was something that was completely incurable. ### Quotes > "It's an overwhelm of challenges that don't inspire you." > — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · [11:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=672) > "we don't need motivation. We don't need micromanagement. We're totally self-governed." > — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · [12:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=731) > "if you can find a job that aligns with your personal values and which excites you to get out of bed every morning, I mean, that's the golden ticket." > — Petro du Pisani, host · [12:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=772) > "the whole organization literally doubled in revenue in a year." > — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · [17:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1068) > "Your life demonstrates what is most meaningful and purposeful." > — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · [18:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1095) > "It's not like, oh, cute, let's figure out your purpose. It's like, this is the most fundamental thing of being a human. And when we misalign, we burn out." > — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · [19:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1168) > "Basically, when we start to behave more like an animal than like an executive." > — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · [22:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1347) > "So burnout is not a weakness. It's a feedback loop to say you're not aligned." > — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · [25:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1532) > "because your life is the story of your purpose." > — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · [26:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1588) ### Claims > "I suspect that I might also have been approaching burnout before I took my conscious sabbatical, although I never really got there." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Defining burnout · [00:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=13) > "work as a burnout coach and really focusing on building resilient leadership, so mostly in, the mining, energy, and development sector." > — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Guest's personal backstory · [00:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=44) > "So it's really working with CEOs and top executive teams, and it's about how do we deliver ambitious growth targets without getting burnout." > — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Guest's personal backstory · [01:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=68) > "I mean, burnout is, you know, it's not just stress. It's, there's a kind of a, a grading that happens to somebody over time." > — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Defining burnout · [01:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=108) > "And then we get to burnout. And that's more where people actually just feel, you know, emotionally, physically, and mentally exhausted. And they start to kind of disengage from work and from life." > — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Defining burnout · [02:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=134) > "And then finally you hit a crisis stage where it's just total shutdown, and that's more where you start to get severe anxiety, depression, and health complications. A lot of the autoimmune conditions come in at that point." > — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Defining burnout · [03:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=209) > "And then the final one is, you know, that you withdraw connection, and that's from other people, but also from yourself, like you lose your sense of self." > — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Warning signs of burnout · [04:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=281) > "So those are really the three kind of core categories. So scattered focus, depleted energy, and withdrawn connection." > — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Warning signs of burnout · [04:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=295) > "I think that we don't, we have a very incomplete model of human behavior. That has defined how we understand ourselves and how we build organizations. And because of that, we have burnout." > — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Root causes of burnout · [05:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=335) > "but actually what we know now is that consciousness is fundamental to all reality, and everything that is material in our world emerges out of that consciousness." > — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Root causes of burnout · [06:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=416) > "It doesn't require big restructurings or any of the kind of stuff that people do. It's like, it's really, really quick. It's really, really quick, you know, to, to wake someone up, to, to what's purposeful and meaningful to them, and then they don't burn out." > — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Purpose and values alignment · [07:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=463) > "there's a huge amount of pressure on delivering increased production every year, even though the resource might be depleting, we still want more out of it." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Root causes of burnout · [09:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=541) > "You're going to get a scattered focus when you're trying to live in other people's values rather than your own. That's the thing that's going to scatter you." > — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Root causes of burnout · [10:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=649) > "And So it's not an overwhelm of workload. It's an overwhelm of challenges that don't inspire you." > — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Root causes of burnout · [11:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=668) > "that's about getting alignment between an individual's values, the job tasks that they're doing, and the company that they're working for. As soon as you have that alignment, you're going to get maximum performance, maximum well-being, and maximum governance from people." > — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Purpose and values alignment · [12:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=745) > "You're always going to have little bits, maybe a big portion of it. Be aligning to your values, but there's always going to be stuff that you hate doing." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Purpose and values alignment · [12:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=764) > "So I have to keep asking, how does it serve me? How does it benefit me to do those tasks that are not I don't wake up in the morning and go, oh my God, I can't wait to do that," > — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Purpose and values alignment · [13:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=812) > "So the definition of stress is you're going to get stressed when you perceive that you're gaining something that you don't want or you're losing something that you do want." > — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Stress and adaptation · [14:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=861) > "The ability to really cope with stress and, and adapt to change is the ability to see positives and negatives, support and challenge, gain and loss in equal balance, and then you get rid of stress." > — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Stress and adaptation · [15:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=908) > "And if that job is actually aligned with what you would love to do most, then getting you back to work is your pathway of healing." > — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Returning to work · [15:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=958) > "And often it's just, you know, like the one person who was completely, in chronic burnout and had a degenerative autoimmune condition. When we went in and looked, it was really just how tasks were being delegated from the, the director." > — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Returning to work · [16:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1010) > "And so as soon as we got all the directors to figure out what their individual mission was and align their job task with that, the whole organization literally doubled in revenue in a year." > — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Returning to work · [17:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1059) > "It's like, where do you spend your money? That's always a good one, right? You can see what you always say yes to, you always have available money to, and there's other things that you just say no to," > — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Purpose and values alignment · [18:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1106) > "These are all feedback mechanisms that are telling you where to focus, where you actually need to focus. And so slowly, as you learn to use those feedback mechanisms, you can start to direct your life more and more into doing what is most meaningful to you." > — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Purpose and values alignment · [18:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1138) > "So literally being able to keep your mind balanced by seeing, if you're feeling highly challenged by somebody, you've got to find where the equal and opposite support is." > — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Stress and adaptation · [21:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1281) > "Bring your mind back into balance, you shift from being in your amygdala at the back here into your prefrontal cortex, which is your, it's called your executive center, right?" > — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Stress and adaptation · [21:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1290) > "So the truth is, you know, very few, you'll get like 2% to 1% to actually put up their hand and say, yeah, I have financial independence, right? So the truth is, they don't value financial wealth building." > — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Purpose and values alignment · [23:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1401) > "So burnout is not a weakness. It's a feedback loop to say you're not aligned. And that alignment is really, really quick to get back." > — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Defining burnout · [25:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1532) > "Like it can take two days, literally two days, you'll be back on your mission. And you can decide whether that job is something you want or don't want." > — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Returning to work · [25:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1545) > "And so when I went back and looked at, you know, when I was ten, my father was killed in a car accident, and it was, because it was a car accident, it was obviously very sudden." > — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Guest's personal backstory · [26:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1601) > "And it was a very complex operation because it was sugar, wattle, pine, gum, avos, oranges, nachis, and there were like eight hundred people living on the farm." > — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Guest's personal backstory · [27:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1639) > "It had a huge impact on my mom and, and I watched her burn out. I watched her go into depression." > — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Guest's personal backstory · [27:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1649) > "And suddenly she had no purpose and she was like, well, what am I going to do? And that for her was like, I may as well not be living." > — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Guest's personal backstory · [28:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1681) > "And then Long journey through all kinds of, different, but basically working on mega projects and unlocking investment into, into mega projects." > — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Guest's personal backstory · [28:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1728) > "And I realized that the reason we never get these projects off the ground is that people don't understand why they make decisions." > — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Root causes of burnout · [29:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1740) > "And through that, I started studying human behavior and then got into more leadership and executive coaching." > — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Guest's personal backstory · [29:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1770) > "my husband literally over the period of a week lost all the, all the feeling in his arms and legs and couldn't get up a flight of stairs." > — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Guest's personal backstory · [29:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1782) > "And I've been studying human behavior for 20 years, and I know that that's not true." > — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Guest's personal backstory · [30:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1810) > "And then he started doing the, the more of the kind of rapid energy reset using the actuality methodology that I use." > — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Returning to work · [31:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1879) > "And literally within one month, he was back at work, back on his mountain bike, completely cured a year and a half later still, has had no symptoms." > — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Returning to work · [31:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1886) > "and because of the, the stigma, people with this methodology, people don't even need to, no one even needs to know, because it can be solved so quickly that it's not, you have, don't have to deal with any of the stigma." > — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Returning to work · [32:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1945) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Burnout: A Warning Sign, Not a Weakness. Episode 15 of a series of podcasts on taking conscious breaks from work. This is a special focus episode on Burnout. In this episode, Petro du Pisani speaks with burnout coach Shannon Royden-Turner about the causes, prevention, and recovery from burnout. Shannon explains that burnout isn’t just stress — it’s a gradual decline into exhaustion, often caused by disconnection from purpose. She shares her personal journey into burnout coaching and highlights three key indicators: scattered focus, depleted energy, and withdrawn connection. Shannon emphasises that burnout is not a weakness but a signal of misalignment with one’s values. This insightful conversation explores how to recognise burnout and realign with a more fulfilling path More about Petro du Pisani and On Change · Connect with Petro · Solid Gold Podcasts ## #039 The Sabbatical Mindset | Omri van Zyl - Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/039-the-sabbatical-mindset/ - Date: 2025-01-30 (as at 2025-01-30) - Guest: Omri van Zyl - Host: Petro du Pisani - Themes: Career breaks and adventure, Leaving corporate life, Ambition versus freedom, Meditation and visualization, Energy and mentorship, Healthy habits and continuous improvement - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1522695 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Omri van Zyl - CEO · RussellStone Capital - Grew up in the agriculture sector; worked at Deloitte, then became CEO of Agri SA after walking the Camino; earlier a professional safari guide in Botswana; did two degrees, an LL.B. and an MBA, while working full-time. In their own words: > "I'm the CEO of RussellStone Capital. The RussellStone Group is quite a big player in the agriculture sector. My job is to, to look for expansion plans, corporate finance." [00:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=47) > "When I did the Camino, I, I, just after that, I changed my career completely. So I went from a corporate, I worked at Deloitte, so I went from there to Agri SA," [02:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=177) > "And I, I actually got three job offers at the same time. And, and one of them was with Agri-Essay, and I decided to do that. So I became the CEO of Agri-Essay after Deloitte," [05:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=355) > "So I became a safari guide in Botswana. but not like a jeep jockey. I actually did a, I worked for Caribou Safaris. The first three months they put me under a Land Rover's, bonnet, and I worked in a mechanics workshop." [11:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=660) > "So I got my professional guides license. I, started guiding. So that taught me a lot about nature, right? So I know the birds, I know the animals." [11:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=697) > "So I did my two degrees while I worked full-time, and I always visualized how I would, how I would perform, writing a test, studying, and the more I visualized it, the more it actually happened. I'm a Golden Key scholar." [23:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1405) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Host Petro du Pisani, herself on a sabbatical after 25 years in corporate, talks to Omri van Zyl, CEO of RussellStone Capital. He describes a life of regular adventurous breaks, among them the Camino, India, a Nile road trip and two years as a Botswana safari guide. He links the Camino to his move from Deloitte to Agri SA. He argues for balancing ambition with an adventurous spirit, and for working from freedom rather than chasing money for freedom. He also covers the daily practices he credits: meditation, visualization with a vision board, exercise and mentorship. **Key ideas** - Omri says regular breaks kept him sane and reflective and let him reset, because being entwined in work expectations stops you seeing the wood from the trees. ([02:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=152) [03:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=207) [03:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=217)) - Omri argues that one must balance ambition with an innate adventurous spirit, otherwise the money-earning part eats you up. ([13:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=793) [13:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=814)) - Citing his boss Russell, Omri suggests that working from freedom, including saying no, can bring more power and money than chasing money to buy freedom. ([15:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=958) [32:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1967) [32:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1977) [32:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1977)) - Omri credits visualization and a daily vision board with outcomes in study and life, saying it reprograms the brain. ([23:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1405) [23:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1436) [25:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1526) [25:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1549)) - Omri says small daily habits, such as ten minutes of meditation and a twenty-minute walk, make a big difference, but only with discipline. ([21:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1316) [22:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1325)) - Omri advises working out what gives you energy and doing more of it, and taking a break and talking to a mentor when your work does not. ([33:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=2029) [35:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=2106) [35:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=2121)) - The host observes that what people want more of on breaks, such as reading, walking and nature, costs little or no money. ([28:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1737)) **Omri's visualization practice** ([23:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1436) [25:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1526) [25:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1532) [25:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1549)) 1. Ask what you would do if you could do anything and had enough money; at first you just fake belief. 2. Put that goal on a vision board and look at it every day. 3. Imagine and explore it before sleep and during meditation, looking at its different angles. 4. Over time this reprograms your brain and you attract different things. **Lessons** - Omri suggests treating breaks as ongoing rather than a once-a-year escape from work you hate. ([27:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1678) [28:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1702)) - Omri says he always budgeted for travel, which built the discipline to afford what he loves. ([18:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1095)) - Omri says staying where you are not playing to your strengths can drain you, as heavy risk and compliance work did for him. ([06:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=400) [06:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=415) [07:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=427)) - Omri argues that mental health deserves the same attention as physical ailments: get help, test alternatives, try something different. ([36:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=2162) [36:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=2177)) - Omri recommends applying kaizen to your own life: start imperfect and improve slowly. ([29:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1776)) **Who it's for:** Corporate professionals thinking about a sabbatical or career change, people torn between ambition and a need for adventure, and anyone interested in meditation, visualization and habit-building as tools for reset and reinvention. **Facts stated in the episode** - Omri walked 470 kilometres on the Camino in Spain, 32 km on the first day. ([03:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=228)) - After the Camino he received three job offers at once and became CEO of Agri SA. ([05:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=355)) - Omri says RussellStone started twenty years ago with nothing and is now a sixteen billion rand business. ([34:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=2053)) - Omri worked as a professional safari guide in Botswana for Caribou Safaris. ([11:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=660) [11:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=697)) - Omri did two degrees while working full-time and is a Golden Key scholar. ([23:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1405)) - On a student trip, Omri's group drove from Stellenbosch to the source of the Nile in Uganda; the oldest member was 23. ([19:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1151)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Can taking a sabbatical help you change careers?** A: Omri says that after walking the Camino he changed careers completely, from Deloitte to Agri SA. He received three job offers at the same time and became CEO of Agri SA. ([02:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=177) [02:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=177) [05:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=355)) **Q: Why do people burn out in corporate jobs?** A: Omri says he spent half his time managing risks that impeded business. He was not playing to his strengths as an entrepreneur and pioneer, and he felt he was dying. ([06:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=388) [06:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=400) [06:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=415)) **Q: What is it like to walk the Camino with no training?** A: Omri walked 470 km without preparation and could not move after the first 32 km day. By the end he could walk 30 to 40 km a day. He describes it as walking meditation. ([03:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=228) [04:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=278)) **Q: How do I balance making money with wanting adventure?** A: Omri argues you must find a balance between ambition and your adventurous spirit, or the money-earning part eats you up. He also says freedom can itself lead to more money. ([13:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=793) [13:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=814) [15:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=958)) **Q: How can I make breaks part of everyday life?** A: Omri recommends visualization with a vision board, daily exercise and healthy eating. He plans something nice every month and does four things he loves every year. ([23:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1436) [25:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1526) [27:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1678) [28:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1702)) **Q: Is meditation worth it if I'm busy?** A: Omri meditates most days and says people underestimate it. He says even ten minutes of meditation or a twenty-minute walk a day makes a big difference, if you have the discipline. ([20:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1248) [21:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1316) [22:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1325)) **Q: What should I do if my job drains my energy?** A: Omri says to take a break, reflect on it and talk to people. He also advises having a mentor who has gone through what you are facing. ([35:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=2106) [35:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=2121)) **Q: How do you stay fit into old age?** A: The host describes the 'centenarian Olympics': think about what you want to do in your nineties and start training for it now. Omri cites a golf partner whose yoga kept him supple. ([29:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1776) [30:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1843)) ### Passage: Walking the Camino before changing careers [02:57–06:08, 538 words] Note (AI): Omri's full account of how a 470 km solo walk reset him and preceded his move from Deloitte to leading Agri SA. Omri van Zyl, guest [02:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=177): > When I did the Camino, I, I, just after that, I changed my career completely. So I went from a corporate, I worked at Deloitte, so I went from there to Agri SA, and it was unsure where I was going to, you know, end up after that happened, or before, before I took the break. and it's kind of serendipitous because everything just kind of fell in place, I guess, after I took the break. And, the break helped me to reset. I mean, sometimes you're so kind of entwined in your environment and, and, you know, in the expectations you have in yourself and others of, have of you, that you don't really see the wood from the trees. So when I did that, I kind of reset it myself completely, and, I mean, literally, I, I walked 470 kilometers. I, I didn't exercise before that or practice. So, after the first 32 kilometers the first day, the next day I couldn't move. My muscles were so sore and places I didn't even know, you know. So, I took my backpack and I threw everything out. I had two, two underpants, two short pants, a long trouser, and two short ones, and the expensive hiking shoes I had I threw away as well. So, I did that with my Crocs, actually. And the next day I did like six kilometers. I was so, so sore. And then the next day I did, I think, 12, and then I went up, and after the Camino I could walk 30, 40 kilometers a day, no problem. So what that does, it's a, it's a walking and kind of meditating. So, it's extremely, meditative and, and kind of focuses your mind because of the rhythm of the walking. I went on my own, so I didn't know anybody there. I didn't even know how it worked. So I, I made a lot of friends along the way. And it's a bit of a spiritual experience because I used to go into all the little churches, meditate a bit. You know, you'd see people sitting under a tree meditating. So everybody goes there for various reasons. For me, it was just to switch off completely. No cell phone, everything was conversational. You would pitch up at a pension, book it in. Okay, the first couple of days I slept in a, in, in a, orbergue is what they call it, with like 15 other oaks snoring the crap out of me. So I was like, this is not going to work. So I, I put myself into my own rooms. And I met so many people from so many different cultures there, you know. So it was, you know, it was a very enlightening experience. But I had no real idea what I was going to do when I got back. And it's as if the universe kind of conspired to put me in a certain place. And I, I actually got three job offers at the same time. And, and one of them was with Agri-Essay, and I decided to do that. So I became the CEO of Agri-Essay after Deloitte, and yeah, that put me on that journey. ### Passage: Why corporate risk and compliance wore him down [06:28–07:54, 211 words] Note (AI): Explains the tipping point for leaving corporate: time spent on risk management outside his strengths. Omri van Zyl, guest [06:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=388): > I was in a very, very heavy corporate structure. risk and compliance was becoming crazy. I hear it's even worse now. Thank goodness I don't have that at the moment. I think I'm an entrepreneur, I'm a pioneer. I don't like rules, regulations, risk requirements, you know, all of that stuff. And I'm not good at it. I'm not good at admin. So I realized that I spend half my time managing risks. That impede on clear business transactions, and I think that kind of weighed me down because I wasn't playing in my strengths spaces. I was dying, literally. And so I knew I had to do something, and I decided to do the Camino. I've done the Inca Trail before, so that was also a nice experience. I had a couple of camel safaris in my life, so I went into the Sahara Desert in Morocco. Did a camel safari there. I also did the same in the Tar Desert in India. But what that does is it takes your mind and your reality, and it alters it completely, especially if you're in a different country, because you don't really understand the culture, the customs. Promise you backpacking through India for a month was very interesting. I liked it. ### Passage: From London to Botswana safari guide [10:51–13:04, 403 words] Note (AI): Shows an early two-year break as a safari guide and the skills and worldview he says it gave him. Omri van Zyl, guest [10:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=651): > I said to myself, I'm going to take two years off because I didn't completely know what I wanted to do. And then I said, okay, after that, I want to do something adventurous. So I became a safari guide in Botswana. but not like a jeep jockey. I actually did a, I worked for Caribou Safaris. The first three months they put me under a Land Rover's, bonnet, and I worked in a mechanics workshop. We ate baloney and white bread every day with tabasco sauce on it. I couldn't swing a spanner, spanner to begin with. But there it's an essential skill. I mean, if you can't fix a car when it breaks down on these type of safaris, you spend fourteen days in the bush, deep trouble. So I did the mechanic thing and everybody was laughing at me, but I think I outshined them on the academic front. So I got my professional guides license. I, started guiding. So that taught me a lot about nature, right? So I know the birds, I know the animals. I really know the birds and the animals, not like, you know, guessing is that a carp's a mossy or not. So I, I got my adventure outlet. It's extremely hard work to do that. You take fourteen guests into the bush, they don't know anything. You're surrounded by wild animals. There's no fencing, elephants, lions, leopards, et cetera, hippos, big threat. and it's just you and the guide. And I was like twenty-four years old. I was like, and, and you have these people's lives in your own, in your hands. So I love doing that, but I knew that was not where I wanted to end up. But that taught me a whole different skill set of It taught me nature, but really, I mean, I looked like an animal when I worked there. I mean, I only showered like once a week. It taught me about mechanics. It taught me about people, a lot about people, different nationalities, general, you know, how people are. People are not the same. They're not the same in, in, in Germany as in France or in Australia or in South Africa or in America. And that, that actually kind of internationalized my worldview a bit. yeah, and then I came back and I did my articles and then I ended up working at Deloitte. ### Passage: Travel, loyalty and money versus freedom [14:57–17:40, 459 words] Note (AI): Sets out his central dilemma: chasing money for freedom versus working from freedom, with examples from his boss and a friend. Omri van Zyl, guest [14:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=897): > every time I travel, I realize my current reality is not defined in the world. If you go to China, there's 1.4 billion people. I mean, there's more people in China than all of Africa and America combined. That, that puts you on a completely different mind space. But it's actually so funny, the moment you get into back two weeks later, you, you back into that, I think it's a, maybe a form of classical, conditioning that all, you get back in the seat and you just roll on. And sometimes you have to alter position, and I think that's very scary. It was for me, always scary to change. I mean, we come from a, from a day where people are very loyal, they're very kind of, committed, and that sometimes is a good thing, but sometimes it's a bad thing. So my current job, when I, when I spoke to Russell about it, he said that he would never compromise his freedom, and that, that actually made me think a lot, because you always think that you want to make enough money to get freedom, but you don't think that if you have freedom, you can actually make a lot more money doing that, or if you do something in your sweet, you know, in your sweet spot, or you do something your talents are really acquired to. So that's always the, the dynamic, and I think everybody thinks that. Listen, I need to pay the bills, I need to pay my house, I need to, you know, pay for the kids to go to school. And then, and then when you do, at the end, you know, people talk about retirement and when I retire and whatever, then you've lived your life, right? So there's, it, that's that space in between. So I think, you know, living in that freedom, I mean, incidentally, the guy that studied with me, that was my roommate at, Stellenbosch, I was in Wilgenhof, he's like a flogger. He goes around the country, makes all these flogs. His name is Chris Waite. Makes all these flogs. It's actually, we, our careers couldn't have been more different. He plays the guitar, he makes art, cooks, he does all that type of stuff. So on the one hand, you know, he's got a lot of freedom, but he would never have fitted in in a corporate career, ever. I knew that when he cooked for me and my girlfriend at the time wearing a, a, a skirt, that was like his Really, he's always been a bit of an alternative guy. So yeah, I, I think that's probably the philosophical dilemma that I think most people have, or most all people have. ### Passage: Visualization and weaving breaks into daily life [25:26–28:43, 632 words] Note (AI): His practical answer to the host's 'sabbatical mindset' question: vision board, habits and regular planned experiences. Omri van Zyl, guest [25:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1526): > The first thing is, I think for me, was the visualization aspect, thinking about it. In the beginning, you don't believe it, you just fake it. You say, this is what I really want to do. If the sky was blue and I could do anything, and I had so much money, what do I want to do? I want to do this. You put that thing, and you, on your board, and you start imagining it. You start looking at the different angles of it, and what later happens is you reprogram your brain, all right? And then when you reprogram your brain, you attract all kinds of different things. Sometimes you're forced to do it, like in the restructuring, you're forced to do it. I mean, you don't want to get restructured. You're forced to do it through COVID, lots of people got restructured. and then you're sitting there and you're like, what the hell am I going to do now? You know, where am I now? And I think the, for me, what has worked is actually going back to that visualization. I actually do it with golf as well, but it doesn't always come off. You know, I play the 18 holes in my mind before I go to sleep and then I just screw it up the next day. So that, that doesn't always work. But, I think so, so that daily, it's always good to exercise. I'm a healthy eater generally, so it's not like I'm a vegan or a vegetarian or, you know, any of that. But, you know, eating healthy and trying to have a healthy lifestyle. People are different. Everybody likes different things. But I always say, if you imagine yourself at the pinnacle of doing that, what would that look like? What does your environment look like? Where are you sitting? What are you doing? Who are you talking to? You know, all those, those kind of things. So from a daily life perspective, I also think it's important because now if I plan a trip, I mean, I sent a, a message to my wife earlier of a, a island holiday and I've been to Mauritius too many times, but let's say in Zanzibar or whatever, with a baby, of course, that gives you something to manifest, to focus on, to look forward to. Because let's be honest, I mean, in daily life, can I say if you're really, if you're really mindful, you know, every moment feels like nirvana, all that's nonsense. I mean, the Buddhist philosophy is life is suffering. That is the philosophy. So you take out the worst right there and everything that you get is a bonus. That I think is important to have that kind of stuff that you look forward to during the year and then planning events in between because you can't just once a year go and do something you like and then you go back and do something you hate and then you go. So you have to do it continuously. So I said to my wife every month, obviously before she became pregnant or I made her pregnant, every month we want to do something nice. If we go to the Machalisberg, we do something. If we go to the Bushveld, I mean we've got so much stuff to do up here in Cape Town and everywhere. So, so I, I do four things every year. I go and hunt because I love the bush. I go fly fishing. I go to Paternoster, which I love. And what's the fifth one? I wanna go to the ocean and swim in the ocean. So those are the four things that I kind of wanna do every year, and that stimulates me. ### Passage: Freedom, energy and having a mentor [32:47–35:30, 491 words] Note (AI): Links saying no, knowing what gives you energy, employer philosophy and mentorship into one closing argument. Omri van Zyl, guest [32:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1967): > I think Russell made me think a lot about freedom. What does that mean? I mean, we all have insecurities, we're all different. But if you have the freedom to say no sometimes, you actually gain more power, right? Because we do so much to please and kind of commit to our careers and work in yourself to death and You know, having the, the blue kind of under your eyes or your eyes are really droopy and, but he's actually a bit of a role model to me because he, he works from a place of complete freedom. If he doesn't want to do something, he doesn't do it. If he was, doesn't want to do something, he does it. And if something doesn't sound right to him, he says no. And if something, his yes is his yes and his no is his no type of thing. But he's unique in the sense that he's, he's not trying to please the whole world, you know. He's trying to do something that, that's special for him. And that gives him energy. And I think that's the other thing is what, what actually gives you energy. You need to figure that out and do more of that. And what takes away your energy? Because we always ask that in job applications. I mean, today I've got two. That's why I almost didn't make it. It's that question about what gives you energy, because not, not every environment gives people the same energy, right? And, it comes from, from him and the, the owner and the company philosophy where they, they started twenty years ago with nothing. Today the business is a sixteen billion rand business. I mean, that's in agriculture, that's a serious business. So that's kind of the philosophy of the workplace that I'm now. It's completely different to corporate or, you know, reporting to boards and audit committees and social and ethics committees and transformation committees and, oh, so I did that for long enough. But it, it gives you a sense of freedom to actually do the things that you love more. And, and I think very few employers actually do that, you know. So listen, okay, what is it that you, normally when you get, go, they need to actually appoint people in positions that gives them energy. That's what we do. So, you know, I just wanted to add that, because I think it's important. And if you're doing something that's not giving you energy, you need to take a break, reflect on it, talk to people. I mean, Pranpretorius was my, was my mentor for a long time. He's an extremely, extremely wise guy, and he helped me through a lot of it. So it also helps to have a mentor, to have people you can talk to that have actually gone through what you want to go through or that you are going through. ### Quotes > "that you don't really see the wood from the trees." > — Omri van Zyl, guest · [03:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=217) > "it's as if the universe kind of conspired to put me in a certain place." > — Omri van Zyl, guest · [05:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=350) > "I wasn't playing in my strengths spaces. I was dying, literally." > — Omri van Zyl, guest · [07:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=427) > "I'm Afrikaans speaking, so if someone beats you with a stick, normally, you know, they're looking for trouble." > — Omri van Zyl, guest · [08:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=503) > "So it's sort of like a, a little hamster wheel that you get trapped on." > — Petro du Pisani, host · [14:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=881) > "So when you have the tools, you need the discipline, right?" > — Omri van Zyl, guest · [21:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1316) > "In the beginning, you don't believe it, you just fake it." > — Omri van Zyl, guest · [25:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1532) > "the Buddhist philosophy is life is suffering. That is the philosophy. So you take out the worst right there and everything that you get is a bonus." > — Omri van Zyl, guest · [27:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1657) > "if you have the freedom to say no sometimes, you actually gain more power, right?" > — Omri van Zyl, guest · [32:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1977) > "his yes is his yes and his no is his no type of thing." > — Omri van Zyl, guest · [33:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=2015) > "You only got maybe 80, 85 years here. Get that stuff fixed." > — Omri van Zyl, guest · [36:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=2172) ### Claims > "I'm the CEO of RussellStone Capital. The RussellStone Group is quite a big player in the agriculture sector. My job is to, to look for expansion plans, corporate finance." > — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Career · [00:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=47) > "So throughout my career, I would take a month to go somewhere exotic, do something really adventurous. So in and amongst was going to Brazil, going to the Amazon, going to Peru." > — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Career breaks and adventure · [01:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=104) > "so, so I think throughout my career, that's kind of kept me sane, you know, kept me reflective all the time and maybe mindful of where I am and where I want to be and reset myself in certain ways." > — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Career breaks and adventure · [02:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=152) > "When I did the Camino, I, I, just after that, I changed my career completely. So I went from a corporate, I worked at Deloitte, so I went from there to Agri SA," > — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Leaving corporate life · [02:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=177) > "sometimes you're so kind of entwined in your environment and, and, you know, in the expectations you have in yourself and others of, have of you, that you don't really see the wood from the trees." > — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Career breaks and adventure · [03:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=207) > "literally, I, I walked 470 kilometers. I, I didn't exercise before that or practice. So, after the first 32 kilometers the first day, the next day I couldn't move." > — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Career breaks and adventure · [03:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=228) > "So what that does, it's a, it's a walking and kind of meditating. So, it's extremely, meditative and, and kind of focuses your mind because of the rhythm of the walking." > — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Meditation and visualization · [04:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=278) > "And I, I actually got three job offers at the same time. And, and one of them was with Agri-Essay, and I decided to do that. So I became the CEO of Agri-Essay after Deloitte," > — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Leaving corporate life · [05:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=355) > "I think I'm an entrepreneur, I'm a pioneer. I don't like rules, regulations, risk requirements, you know, all of that stuff. And I'm not good at it. I'm not good at admin." > — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Leaving corporate life · [06:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=400) > "So I realized that I spend half my time managing risks. That impede on clear business transactions, and I think that kind of weighed me down because I wasn't playing in my strengths spaces. I was dying, literally." > — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Leaving corporate life · [06:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=415) > "But what that does is it takes your mind and your reality, and it alters it completely, especially if you're in a different country, because you don't really understand the culture, the customs." > — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Career breaks and adventure · [07:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=457) > "I thought I was going to sit there and meditate with Buddhist monks for a week until I did it for one day. It was like, no one speaks English. I can't eat this food." > — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Meditation and visualization · [08:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=489) > "So I stayed there for three days. So the guy turned out to be the, the manager of the Rolling Stones. And, I had so many interesting conversations with him, and with his family, actually." > — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Career breaks and adventure · [09:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=567) > "I spent a year in London, selling cooking pots to Nigerian and Ghanaian families and traveling." > — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Career · [10:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=620) > "So I became a safari guide in Botswana. but not like a jeep jockey. I actually did a, I worked for Caribou Safaris. The first three months they put me under a Land Rover's, bonnet, and I worked in a mechanics workshop." > — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Career · [11:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=660) > "So I got my professional guides license. I, started guiding. So that taught me a lot about nature, right? So I know the birds, I know the animals." > — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Career · [11:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=697) > "You take fourteen guests into the bush, they don't know anything. You're surrounded by wild animals. There's no fencing, elephants, lions, leopards, et cetera, hippos, big threat." > — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Career · [11:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=716) > "People are not the same. They're not the same in, in, in Germany as in France or in Australia or in South Africa or in America. And that, that actually kind of internationalized my worldview a bit." > — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Career breaks and adventure · [12:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=764) > "on the one hand, you have this ambition driving you to do, to do something corporate or something You know, professionally important, and on the other hand, you, you have your, your innate adventurous spirit or your artistic spirit or whatever you want to call that." > — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Ambition versus freedom · [13:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=793) > "I think in one's career, if you have to find a balance between the two. If you don't, one of them is gonna, not one of them, I think mostly it's the, the money earning part that eats you up." > — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Ambition versus freedom · [13:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=814) > "then you get trapped in corporates because you earn money. Okay, so you earn money and the money helps you to have adventures, but then you never, don't, never have enough leave." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Ambition versus freedom · [14:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=869) > "every time I travel, I realize my current reality is not defined in the world. If you go to China, there's 1.4 billion people." > — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Career breaks and adventure · [14:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=897) > "the moment you get into back two weeks later, you, you back into that, I think it's a, maybe a form of classical, conditioning that all, you get back in the seat and you just roll on." > — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Career breaks and adventure · [15:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=919) > "he said that he would never compromise his freedom, and that, that actually made me think a lot, because you always think that you want to make enough money to get freedom, but you don't think that if you have freedom, you can actually make a lot more money doing that," > — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Ambition versus freedom · [15:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=958) > "and I think I've always made budgeting a priority in terms of my travel. It's not something I would just do willy-nilly. You know, especially in the beginning, if you don't have a lot of money, When you just start a family, you know, you have to kind of really budget to do that." > — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Career breaks and adventure · [18:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1095) > "we left Stellenbosch and we went up to the source of the Nile in Uganda and came all the way back. At the time, no cell phone, oldest guy in the group was like 23." > — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Career breaks and adventure · [19:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1151) > "So it's important to be true to yourself and for people to give you that freedom to be true to yourself. Otherwise, you'll always be unhappy." > — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Ambition versus freedom · [20:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1211) > "So, I meditate, every day, most days. So, it's important to bring that mindfulness into the, into play, and I think people often underestimate the value of meditation." > — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Meditation and visualization · [20:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1248) > "So when you have the tools, you need the discipline, right? So if you don't have the discipline, you have the best tools, but you can't apply it." > — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Healthy habits and continuous improvement · [21:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1316) > "This is not difficult. I mean, it's like meditating ten minutes a day, makes a big difference. Taking a walk for twenty minutes a day makes a big difference." > — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Healthy habits and continuous improvement · [22:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1325) > "So I did my two degrees while I worked full-time, and I always visualized how I would, how I would perform, writing a test, studying, and the more I visualized it, the more it actually happened. I'm a Golden Key scholar." > — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Meditation and visualization · [23:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1405) > "I have a vision board. I look at that vision board every day, and when I go to sleep, I imagine that and explore that, when I meditate in my mind, and even it's the same vision." > — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Meditation and visualization · [23:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1436) > "In the beginning, you don't believe it, you just fake it. You say, this is what I really want to do. If the sky was blue and I could do anything, and I had so much money, what do I want to do?" > — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Meditation and visualization · [25:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1532) > "and what later happens is you reprogram your brain, all right? And then when you reprogram your brain, you attract all kinds of different things." > — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Meditation and visualization · [25:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1549) > "you can't just once a year go and do something you like and then you go back and do something you hate and then you go. So you have to do it continuously." > — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Career breaks and adventure · [27:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1678) > "So, so I, I do four things every year. I go and hunt because I love the bush. I go fly fishing. I go to Paternoster, which I love." > — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Career breaks and adventure · [28:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1702) > "the things that we actually wanna do more of, which is meditating, reading, walking, spending time in nature, spending time with family, all of those things don't actually cost you any money, okay?" > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Healthy habits and continuous improvement · [28:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1737) > "But you apply that to your own life, right? And it doesn't have to be perfect at the beginning. It's never perfect. But then you chip away at it, you chip away at it slowly, you make it better, you get better, you work on something else." > — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Healthy habits and continuous improvement · [29:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1776) > "And in the centenary Olympics is you think about all the things you want to do in your nineties, and you start practicing for them now already." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Healthy habits and continuous improvement · [30:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1843) > "But if you have the freedom to say no sometimes, you actually gain more power, right? Because we do so much to please and kind of commit to our careers" > — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Ambition versus freedom · [32:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1977) > "And I think that's the other thing is what, what actually gives you energy. You need to figure that out and do more of that. And what takes away your energy?" > — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Energy and mentorship · [33:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=2029) > "they, they started twenty years ago with nothing. Today the business is a sixteen billion rand business. I mean, that's in agriculture, that's a serious business." > — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Career · [34:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=2053) > "And if you're doing something that's not giving you energy, you need to take a break, reflect on it, talk to people. I mean, Pranpretorius was my, was my mentor for a long time." > — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Energy and mentorship · [35:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=2106) > "So it also helps to have a mentor, to have people you can talk to that have actually gone through what you want to go through or that you are going through." > — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Energy and mentorship · [35:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=2121) > "But if you're solely sick, many people don't do anything about it. I'm like, what the hell? That's almost more important than knee surgery, you know, in a lot of respects, because you only have one life." > — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Energy and mentorship · [36:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=2162) > "Get that stuff fixed. Understand. Test, test the universe. Test alternatives. Do something completely different, you know. See how that works for you." > — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Energy and mentorship · [36:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=2177) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Thriving Through Breaks: Balance & Success Episode 13 of a series of podcasts on taking conscious breaks from work. In this episode, Petro du Pisani speaks to Omri van Zyl (CEO of RussellStone Capital) about taking career breaks and sabbaticals for adventure and self-reflection. Omri discusses how these breaks helped him reset, gain new perspectives, and eventually led him to change careers from corporate to the agriculture sector. Omri emphasizes the importance of finding a balance between ambition and one's adventurous spirit, and how visualization, meditation, and healthy habits have been instrumental in his journey. He also highlights the value of having mentors and coaches to guide personal growth. The conversation touches on themes of freedom, energy, and living a deliberate life aligned with one's values and aspirations. More about Petro du Pisani and On Change here · Solid Gold Podcasts · Connect with Petro · Solid Gold Podcasts ## #037 Pausing to Pivot | Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio - Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/037-pausing-to-pivot/ - Date: 2025-01-25 (as at 2025-01-25) - Guest: Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio - Host: Petro du Pisani - Themes: Burnout and sabbatical, Career pivot from mining, Self-reflection during a break, Sabbatical mindset and mini breaks, Mentoring and empathy - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1521193 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio - executive leader and geoscientist · ANSTO · Australia - Took a sabbatical in 2015 after nearly burning out, then pivoted her career from mining to the nuclear industry. Founded Women in Mining South Africa in 2010 and was recognised in the inaugural Top 100 Global Women in Mining in 2013. In their own words: > "Well, I am currently working in Australia's only nuclear reactor at an organization called ANSTO. It's been quite a change from working mining previously." [01:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=78) > "Well, back in 2015, I'd been about 20 years into mining at that point, and I'd, pretty much reached many of the goals that I'd wanted to in mining. So I had been thinking about what would be next." [01:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=104) > "I got the assignment done, which was fantastic, so I graduated from the company director's course, and that was step one in my grand plan of, of making a change in my career." [07:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=473) > "I mentor a lot of PhDs in particular who are facing a change from being in a academic environment to potentially moving into the industry environment." [22:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1324) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Host Petro du Pisani talks to Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio about the sabbatical she took in 2015. At the time she was about 20 years into mining, holding three roles after a takeover and close to burnout. Pamela describes her plan for the break and what actually happened: she finished a company director's course, travelled to Cairns, reflected and job hunted. She explains how the break led to a deliberate pivot to the nuclear industry at ANSTO. She also covers how she now spots burnout signs, uses mini breaks, and mentors PhDs through their own career changes. **Key ideas** - Pamela says that recognising she was close to burnout gave her permission to stop and make a change she had been too comfortable to make. ([02:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=173) [03:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=188) [03:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=189)) - Pamela used the break deliberately to broaden beyond mining, build transferable skills and target a science-based organisation. ([08:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=536) [10:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=646) [15:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=926)) - Pamela got the most out of asking trusted people about her strengths and areas of development and comparing their views with her own. ([13:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=793) [13:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=823) [14:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=851)) - Pamela says the burnout eroded her self-esteem more deeply than she expected, and that nurturing herself was the main thing she took from the break. ([11:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=682) [11:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=713)) - Pamela says careers are not a straight line; she uses the word pivot deliberately when advising her STEM mentees. ([15:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=956) [15:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=958)) - The host's 'sabbatical mindset', which Pamela endorses: regular mini breaks and long weekends that disconnect you enough to make them count. ([17:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1052) [18:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1120) [19:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1183) [20:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1207)) **Pamela's self-reflection during her career break** ([13:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=793) [13:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=793) [13:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=823)) 1. Answer quizzes about what your ideal job would be. 2. List pros and cons of the roles you come across. 3. Revisit personality analyses such as Myers-Briggs and past performance review feedback. 4. Ask people you are close to what they see as your strengths and areas of development. 5. Compare their feedback with your own view of yourself and the directions you could go. **Lessons** - Pamela advises learning the warning signs of burnout and taking time out to nurture yourself before you reach that point. ([11:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=713) [17:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1054)) - Pamela's savings net, built after two earlier redundancies, made resigning during a mining downturn less frightening. ([02:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=147) [06:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=415)) - Pamela wishes she had taken more holiday time and spent less time job hunting. ([12:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=744) [16:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=990)) - Pamela says short, deliberate breaks away from phone and computer can keep burnout at bay during intense periods such as COVID. ([17:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1068) [18:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1120) [19:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1150)) - Pamela says having made a deliberate change herself gives her empathy for mentees and makes her a better manager. ([22:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1336) [23:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1386)) **Who it's for:** Professionals near burnout who are weighing a break or resignation, people planning a career change between industries, and managers and mentors who support staff or early-career researchers through career transitions. **Facts stated in the episode** - Pamela took her sabbatical in 2015, after about 20 years in mining. ([01:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=104)) - She works at ANSTO, which runs Australia's only nuclear reactor. ([01:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=78)) - She had been made redundant in mining twice before her 2015 resignation. ([06:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=415)) - She applied for 30-odd roles and had about three or four interviews. ([09:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=565)) - She founded Women in Mining South Africa in 2010 and was named in the inaugural Top 100 Global Women in Mining in 2013. ([01:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=61)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Why do people wait until they are nearly burnt out before taking a break?** A: Pamela puts it down to comfort: you settle into a comfort zone, build on past successes, and the next step feels scary. Recognising she was close to burnout gave her permission to stop. ([02:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=173) [03:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=188)) **Q: What triggered Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio's sabbatical?** A: A takeover of the mine she worked on left her holding three roles without support and close to burnout. She also needed time to finish an assignment for her company director's course, so she resigned. ([01:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=118) [04:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=269)) **Q: How did she plan financially for quitting without a job?** A: She had always kept a savings net after being made redundant in mining twice before, and she budgeted about six months to find a new role. ([05:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=336) [06:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=415)) **Q: How long did her job search take after the break?** A: She applied for 30-odd roles and had three or four interviews. The role she got came quickly and the employer wanted her to start soon, which cut her break short. ([07:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=470) [09:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=565)) **Q: How can I reflect on what job I want next during a career break?** A: Pamela used ideal-job quizzes, pros and cons lists, personality analyses and performance feedback. What helped most was asking trusted people about her strengths and development areas. ([13:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=793) [13:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=823)) **Q: How do you prevent burnout after coming back to work?** A: Pamela reaches out earlier for help and takes deliberate mini breaks, such as weekends away from phone and computer. She follows a colleague who takes a mental health long weekend every couple of Fridays. ([17:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1054) [18:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1120) [19:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1150)) **Q: What is a sabbatical mindset?** A: The host's term for bringing the break feeling back into work through mini breaks. Pamela agrees: she has learned to disconnect enough in a long weekend that she no longer feels she is owed a longer break. ([19:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1183) [20:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1207)) **Q: What would Pamela do on another sabbatical?** A: She would not pivot her career again. She would pursue her hobby of wild orchid hunting, write a book about it as a citizen scientist, and travel around Australia. ([21:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1264)) ### Passage: Why she resigned close to burnout in 2015 [01:43–03:22, 254 words] Note (AI): Explains the takeover, the three roles and the burnout that triggered her resignation, and why people often wait until they are near burnout. Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest [01:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=103): > Sure. Well, back in 2015, I'd been about 20 years into mining at that point, and I'd, pretty much reached many of the goals that I'd wanted to in mining. So I had been thinking about what would be next. The driver for actually taking a break, though, was I'd been through a takeover of the mine I was working on, another company. I was actually holding down three roles and getting close to burnout and realized I didn't have the support, needed to be able to continue and thought, well, this is it. I'll quit. I'll take time off to think about what I really want to do and how to get there. So that precipitated my resigning in what was the middle of one of the mining downturns, but I had sufficient confidence in myself to do it anyway. Yeah, Petro du Pisani, host [02:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=160): > it's amazing how, and I've heard this from many people, that you have to get so close to burnout before you decide you're going to take the break. So I'm wondering why that is. Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest [02:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=173): > I think it's, it's being comfortable. You know, you get into a comfort zone, you do what, you know, you can do, you build on past successes, and it's quite scary to take the next step in making the change. For me, recognizing that I was getting close to burnout meant that I could now give myself permission to make that, to stop and to make the change, which was an interesting observation for myself at the time. ### Passage: What actually happened during the break [07:50–09:46, 316 words] Note (AI): Compares the plan with reality: the director's course, a solo trip, deliberate job hunting for broader roles, and a faster-than-expected job offer. Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest [07:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=470): > It did turn out to be a little different, I must admit. I got the assignment done, which was fantastic, so I graduated from the company director's course, and that was step one in my grand plan of, of making a change in my career. I took some time out to reflect on things and journal a little, but I'm a very impatient person, so that didn't work out as well as I thought it would. I did go on that fantastic holiday to Cairns and the Great Barrier Reef off by myself on an adventure, and, that was awesome. just spent a week in I remember it was the middle of winter. It was snowing in New South Wales and I was in tropical Cairns in a sundress. It was just awesome. And it felt really good to get away from everything on my own. But when I got back, I realized, well, there was going to be quite a lot of work to do in terms of, job hunting. But it was very deliberate because I knew I was using this time to change what I wanted to do. And what I wanted was to work more broadly than in mining. I knew that I needed to diversify my skill set. And so I was looking for very different types of roles, which, you know, meant that it could take a very long time to find it, because I was not what people were looking for. I had to sell my skills. And It actually went a lot faster than I expected. I mean, I did apply for 30-odd roles and had about three or four interviews, but the role I actually got happened very quickly, and they wanted me to start rather soon as well, which meant that the other half of my holiday plans had to go awry, which was a pity. ### Passage: Lessons on self-esteem and warning signs [10:23–12:28, 297 words] Note (AI): Describes transferable skills as the goal, how burnout eroded her self-esteem, and nurturing herself as the main lesson. Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest [10:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=623): > exactly, because some of the things, well, okay, I knew that I didn't want to be purely technical, and I wanted to be much broader in my set of experiences that I built up, because the goal I was working towards was moving out of the mining industry into another industry. What that other was, was an unknown, but I knew that I had to develop transferable skills, and I was very interested in technology and science, so I knew it would be a science-based organization. I didn't really spend too much time on what I didn't want, apart from knowing that I didn't want to burn myself out again. What did you learn from that three months of taking a break? I suppose rely on my previous experience more. In the time leading up to, to taking the time off, I was actually, I suppose, mentally more anguished because I was suffering a lack of self-esteem and trying to keep on top of everything and not having the support to do so. And I think that erosion of self-esteem went deeper than I expected because the relief from not having to do that was fantastic. I could build myself up to my usual levels of, of self-confidence and self-reliance. And it made me realize that I should never get to that point again to un, you know, understand what the warning signs were and to, to take time out and nurture myself more. So I think the nurturing is mostly what I got out of it. And remembering That I have the ability to make changes and, be more adventurous. So what do you wish you'd done more of on your break? I do wish I'd taken more holiday time than spent more time job hunting. ### Passage: How she reflected and gathered feedback [13:13–14:26, 185 words] Note (AI): A concrete set of reflection activities: quizzes, pros and cons, personality analyses, performance feedback and asking trusted people about her strengths. Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest [13:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=793): > So, for me, it, it looks like a lot of answering questions of what I like my ideal job to be, you know, there's quizzes out there. Pros and cons of looking at different roles that I come across, whether they interested me or not. Revisiting some of the personality analyses, I guess you would call them. Things like you had Myers-Briggs I'd done ages ago, and any feedback I got from performance reviews. But also, I spent a bit of time asking people whom I was close to, or whose opinion mattered to me, what they thought my strengths were, and my areas of development, and I think I got the most out of that, actually asking people what they thought, and sort of comparing that feedback to what I thought of myself, and Directions I can go. What was the most useful piece of advice you got? I guess throughout it all, what helped me a lot was how much those people I reached out to were prepared to take time out to talk to me and to support me in the process. ### Passage: Pivot to nuclear and lessons carried forward [15:05–16:38, 231 words] Note (AI): Shows how the break fed a deliberate pivot to the nuclear industry and the three lessons she applies at work and with mentees. Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest [15:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=905): > your current workspace? I guess to continue the story, I did eventually leave mining in a short period of time, and I moved into the nuclear industry, and that pivot from mining To a different industry was very deliberate, as I said. It's something that career break gave me time to think about and to chart out in terms of goals and possible steps and how I could build the skills to make that career pivot. And I use the word pivot very deliberately because it was something I, I now use when I chat to my mentees in STEM who are also looking at how they can chart their way through their careers. You know, be able to provide them some advice in that it's not necessarily a straight line. There are times you deviate, there are times you deliberately head off in a different direction. So, you know, that's one aspect that I take forward. The other is very much about taking care of myself and ensuring that when I'm doing too much that I start unpacking it and Focusing in on what I can do and, and what I can put off during that time. finally, oh yes, to take those holiday breaks when I can and go for it because you never know when something else is going to happen and you have to change plans again. ### Passage: Mini breaks during COVID and the sabbatical mindset [17:32–20:30, 430 words] Note (AI): Shows how she spotted burnout signs returning during COVID and used deliberate mini breaks instead of waiting for a long sabbatical. Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest [17:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1052): > I have, yes. And it's, you know, it's taught me to, to reach out earlier to ask for help, and if help's not forthcoming, then to make some, you know, further decisions on what I do and don't do. It's interesting because during the COVID pandemic, it got to a point where it was starting to feel similar, where it was constant, constant work because, you know, running a nuclear reactor and nuclear medicine production for Australia meant we were constantly on as a, an essential service. And with not being able to get away, because there were also very strict restrictions as to where you could move, you know, within like five kilometers of your home and so on. that sense of being restricted also weighed me down. And I realized, like, I'm starting to feel like I did back then, around about the time when I thought I should take a break. So I started doing these mini breaks, you know, a, a weekend with not looking at the computer or the phone, and just very deliberately doing something different. Because I'd learned the importance of being mentally switched off and having a, a refresher that way. So, you know, that is something that, helped me through that timeframe, and which continues now. I actually have a very, good example that I follow in my workplace of a colleague who takes a, he calls it a, a mental health break every couple of Fridays. He takes the time off to have a long weekend. And I thought, that's actually a really sensible thing to do. And so that's been one of my learnings about taking care of myself to, be able to do what I need to do work-wise and support my teams and in the, what is quite a complex environment. Petro du Pisani, host [19:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1183): > I have this concept which I call the sabbatical mindset. And it almost sounds like these mini breaks and mental health breaks are part of taking your sabbatical mindset back into the workplace with you and to maintain that break feeling Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest [20:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1200): > even in between work. Absolutely. You were saying earlier, I've owed myself three months, somewhere down the line. I actually don't feel I owe myself that anymore because I've been taking the time deliberately. You know, it may not be a long period of time, but I feel that even if I take a, a long weekend, that I am, I've learned how to disconnect enough to make it count. So, yes, I, I think, you know, I would call that a sabbatical mindset, certainly. ### Quotes > "I think it's, it's being comfortable. You know, you get into a comfort zone," > — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · [02:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=173) > "recognizing that I was getting close to burnout meant that I could now give myself permission to make that, to stop and to make the change," > — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · [03:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=189) > "It was snowing in New South Wales and I was in tropical Cairns in a sundress. It was just awesome." > — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · [08:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=511) > "What I wasn't prepared for was emotionally how much that could affect your way of thinking, but also how liberating that could be as well." > — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · [12:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=777) > "there's a lot of people out there who actually care about you. And you only really realize that once you look away from work." > — Petro du Pisani, host · [14:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=867) > "it's not necessarily a straight line. There are times you deviate, there are times you deliberately head off in a different direction." > — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · [15:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=958) > "to take those holiday breaks when I can and go for it because you never know when something else is going to happen" > — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · [16:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=990) > "I've learned how to disconnect enough to make it count." > — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · [20:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1222) > "to get to talk about what I call my career pivots more than my career break, because the break was far too short." > — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · [23:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1410) ### Claims > "She founded Women in Mining South Africa in 2010 and was recognized in the inaugural Top 100 Global Women in Mining in 2013." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Career pivot from mining · [01:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=61) > "Well, I am currently working in Australia's only nuclear reactor at an organization called ANSTO. It's been quite a change from working mining previously." > — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Career pivot from mining · [01:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=78) > "Well, back in 2015, I'd been about 20 years into mining at that point, and I'd, pretty much reached many of the goals that I'd wanted to in mining. So I had been thinking about what would be next." > — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Career pivot from mining · [01:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=104) > "The driver for actually taking a break, though, was I'd been through a takeover of the mine I was working on, another company. I was actually holding down three roles and getting close to burnout and realized I didn't have the support, needed to be able to continue and thought, well, this is it." > — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Burnout and sabbatical · [01:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=118) > "So that precipitated my resigning in what was the middle of one of the mining downturns, but I had sufficient confidence in myself to do it anyway." > — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Burnout and sabbatical · [02:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=147) > "I think it's, it's being comfortable. You know, you get into a comfort zone, you do what, you know, you can do, you build on past successes, and it's quite scary to take the next step in making the change." > — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Burnout and sabbatical · [02:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=173) > "For me, recognizing that I was getting close to burnout meant that I could now give myself permission to make that, to stop and to make the change, which was an interesting observation for myself at the time." > — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Burnout and sabbatical · [03:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=188) > "What precipitated stopping at the time, or resigning at the time, was I needed to complete an assignment for my company director's course. And with doing the three roles on the mind, I just did not have time to do so, so I'm okay." > — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Burnout and sabbatical · [04:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=269) > "So I thought it would take me about six months or so, and I planned out those six months in terms of getting my assignment done in the first couple of weeks, taking some time to plan how I wanted to approach job hunting and, and to apply for roles at the same time." > — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Burnout and sabbatical · [05:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=336) > "But from a time off perspective, I wanted to spend more time on some of my hobbies, which was photography at that time, and to explore Australia, having, I think we'd, we'd been in Australia for about three years then," > — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Burnout and sabbatical · [05:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=354) > "But I guess from a planning perspective, I could rely on the fact that I've always had a savings net for situations like these, having previously been made redundant in mining twice before, so." > — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Burnout and sabbatical · [06:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=415) > "I got the assignment done, which was fantastic, so I graduated from the company director's course, and that was step one in my grand plan of, of making a change in my career." > — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Career pivot from mining · [07:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=473) > "I took some time out to reflect on things and journal a little, but I'm a very impatient person, so that didn't work out as well as I thought it would." > — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Self-reflection during a break · [08:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=486) > "I did go on that fantastic holiday to Cairns and the Great Barrier Reef off by myself on an adventure, and, that was awesome." > — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Burnout and sabbatical · [08:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=495) > "And what I wanted was to work more broadly than in mining. I knew that I needed to diversify my skill set. And so I was looking for very different types of roles, which, you know, meant that it could take a very long time to find it, because I was not what people were looking for. I had to sell my skills." > — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Career pivot from mining · [08:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=536) > "I mean, I did apply for 30-odd roles and had about three or four interviews, but the role I actually got happened very quickly, and they wanted me to start rather soon as well," > — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Career pivot from mining · [09:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=565) > "Yes. Yeah, it's, it's, it's funny how, when you go through a, a very, very brutal restructure or a, you know, very inhumane way of working, you have this long list of things that you don't want anymore." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Burnout and sabbatical · [09:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=591) > "but I knew that I had to develop transferable skills, and I was very interested in technology and science, so I knew it would be a science-based organization. I didn't really spend too much time on what I didn't want, apart from knowing that I didn't want to burn myself out again." > — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Career pivot from mining · [10:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=646) > "I was actually, I suppose, mentally more anguished because I was suffering a lack of self-esteem and trying to keep on top of everything and not having the support to do so. And I think that erosion of self-esteem went deeper than I expected because the relief from not having to do that was fantastic." > — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Burnout and sabbatical · [11:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=682) > "And it made me realize that I should never get to that point again to un, you know, understand what the warning signs were and to, to take time out and nurture myself more. So I think the nurturing is mostly what I got out of it." > — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Burnout and sabbatical · [11:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=713) > "I do wish I'd taken more holiday time than spent more time job hunting." > — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Burnout and sabbatical · [12:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=744) > "I'd say the depth of not knowing. You know, intellectually, I knew that there was going to be a level of uncertainty. What I wasn't prepared for was emotionally how much that could affect your way of thinking, but also how liberating that could be as well." > — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Self-reflection during a break · [12:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=768) > "So, for me, it, it looks like a lot of answering questions of what I like my ideal job to be, you know, there's quizzes out there. Pros and cons of looking at different roles that I come across, whether they interested me or not." > — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Self-reflection during a break · [13:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=793) > "But also, I spent a bit of time asking people whom I was close to, or whose opinion mattered to me, what they thought my strengths were, and my areas of development, and I think I got the most out of that, actually asking people what they thought, and sort of comparing that feedback to what I thought of myself," > — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Self-reflection during a break · [13:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=823) > "I guess throughout it all, what helped me a lot was how much those people I reached out to were prepared to take time out to talk to me and to support me in the process." > — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Self-reflection during a break · [14:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=851) > "there's a lot of people out there who actually care about you. And you only really realize that once you look away from work." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Self-reflection during a break · [14:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=867) > "It's something that career break gave me time to think about and to chart out in terms of goals and possible steps and how I could build the skills to make that career pivot." > — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Career pivot from mining · [15:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=926) > "You know, be able to provide them some advice in that it's not necessarily a straight line. There are times you deviate, there are times you deliberately head off in a different direction." > — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Mentoring and empathy · [15:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=956) > "The other is very much about taking care of myself and ensuring that when I'm doing too much that I start unpacking it and Focusing in on what I can do and, and what I can put off during that time." > — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Sabbatical mindset and mini breaks · [16:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=972) > "to take those holiday breaks when I can and go for it because you never know when something else is going to happen and you have to change plans again." > — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Sabbatical mindset and mini breaks · [16:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=990) > "And it's, you know, it's taught me to, to reach out earlier to ask for help, and if help's not forthcoming, then to make some, you know, further decisions on what I do and don't do." > — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Burnout and sabbatical · [17:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1054) > "It's interesting because during the COVID pandemic, it got to a point where it was starting to feel similar, where it was constant, constant work because, you know, running a nuclear reactor and nuclear medicine production for Australia meant we were constantly on as a, an essential service." > — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Sabbatical mindset and mini breaks · [17:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1068) > "So I started doing these mini breaks, you know, a, a weekend with not looking at the computer or the phone, and just very deliberately doing something different. Because I'd learned the importance of being mentally switched off and having a, a refresher that way." > — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Sabbatical mindset and mini breaks · [18:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1120) > "I actually have a very, good example that I follow in my workplace of a colleague who takes a, he calls it a, a mental health break every couple of Fridays. He takes the time off to have a long weekend." > — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Sabbatical mindset and mini breaks · [19:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1150) > "I have this concept which I call the sabbatical mindset. And it almost sounds like these mini breaks and mental health breaks are part of taking your sabbatical mindset back into the workplace with you and to maintain that break feeling" > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Sabbatical mindset and mini breaks · [19:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1183) > "I actually don't feel I owe myself that anymore because I've been taking the time deliberately. You know, it may not be a long period of time, but I feel that even if I take a, a long weekend, that I am, I've learned how to disconnect enough to make it count." > — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Sabbatical mindset and mini breaks · [20:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1207) > "This time if I took a sabbatical, it would be more about doing a few things I've not had time for in the day-to-day, and this is to pursue one of my passions with my hobby, which is wild orchid hunting and writing a book about it." > — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Burnout and sabbatical · [21:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1264) > "I mentor a lot of PhDs in particular who are facing a change from being in a academic environment to potentially moving into the industry environment." > — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Mentoring and empathy · [22:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1324) > "And I feel that the time I've had when I deliberately made a change myself helps provide me with some empathy for what they're going through" > — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Mentoring and empathy · [22:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1336) > "Yes, most definitely. I think it makes you a better manager as well." > — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Mentoring and empathy · [23:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1386) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Burnout as a catalyst: Pamela's journey to a career pivot. Episode 11 of a series of podcasts on taking conscious breaks from work. In this episode, Petro du Pisani speaks to Pamela Naidoo-Amegio, an executive leader and geoscientist. Pamela shares her journey of taking a sabbatical in 2015 after nearly burning out. Pamela reflects on her reasons for the break, the gap between her expectations and reality, and the transformative lessons learned. Pamela used the time for self-reflection, pursuing hobbies, and ultimately pivoting her career from mining to the nuclear industry. She highlights the importance of self-care, recognising burnout, and working breaks into her work-life to maintain balance and foster personal growth. More about Petro du Pisani and On Change here · Connect with Petro · Solid Gold Podcasts ## #034 The Transformative Break | Zaheera Soomar - Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/034-the-transformative-break/ - Date: 2024-10-24 (as at 2024-10-24) - Guest: Zaheera Soomar - Host: Petro du Pisani - Themes: Taking a sabbatical, Identity and self-worth, Corporate restructuring, Reflection and introspection, Re-entering the workplace, Privilege and choice, Solo adventures - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1495379 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Zaheera Soomar - business leader, independent consultant, and academic scholar · Canada - Originally South African; 20 years in the corporate world; has led large-scale transformational projects across multiple industries; completed her doctoral thesis during her sabbatical, with her doctorate through Haskayne Business School. In their own words: > "I am originally South African. I'm now based in Canada with my family for the past, I've been out of South Africa for the past ten years." [01:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=84) > "I was also busy with my doctorate, and I had done around just over three and a half years. And I was busy with my thesis for about a year leading up to that decision last year." [02:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=153) > "So, for example, one of the decisions I've made is I don't want to go back to corporate. I've worked in quite a number of corporates. I've also worked in mid-sized, smaller firms, and I've also worked in startup firms." [38:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2300) > "the fact that I could do my MBA and my doctorate while being married and having kids, you fully supported that." [54:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=3285) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Petro du Pisani talks with Zaheera Soomar, who took her first sabbatical after twenty years of work, following a corporate restructure. Zaheera describes needing a to-do list and her thesis to justify the break. She talks about feeling disposable when she left and about losing purpose in the first month. About two months in, she began giving herself permission to just be. She covers completing her doctorate, a solo Himalayan climb and humanitarian work in Egypt, and her method of introspection. She also explains how she is approaching re-entry to work differently and why she moved from sabbatical cynic to advocate. The host adds her own sabbatical rules and experiences. **Key ideas** - Zaheera says she needed a reason, such as her thesis and a to-do list, to give herself permission to take a sabbatical, and she links this to her self-worth. ([05:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=315) [05:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=328)) - Zaheera describes feeling disposable at the end of the restructure and resolving to know her worth in her next commitment. ([11:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=705) [12:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=767) [12:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=771)) - Both speakers say it takes about six to eight weeks to disentangle identity from an employer. Zaheera describes losing her sense of purpose in the first month. ([15:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=934) [15:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=946) [21:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1314)) - Zaheera says the sabbatical moved her from seeing breaks as weak to advocating them as probably a must. ([29:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1766) [30:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1856) [31:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1905) [32:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1929)) - Zaheera argues that the ability to take a break is a privilege, but that self-respect and self-worth are available to anyone. ([42:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2566) [43:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2638) [44:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2642)) - Zaheera now screens organisations for alignment with her values, interviews them as much as they interview her, and negotiates for flexibility. ([45:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2735) [46:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2765) [46:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2796) [47:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2863)) - The host argues that solo adventures among strangers help you rediscover yourself. Zaheera found her answers to strangers on the mountain became more honest over time. ([27:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1634) [27:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1670) [29:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1743)) **Zaheera's approach to introspection** ([34:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2077) [34:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2077) [35:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2100) [35:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2124) [35:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2158)) 1. Sit with yourself without doing anything, not even reading or watching something. 2. Tune into your feelings by closing your eyes and noticing what each part of your body feels. 3. Go deeper to understand what is driving the feeling, such as fear or worry. 4. Identify the beliefs, stigmas and biases at the root, and decide whether to keep, change or let go of them. **Lessons** - Zaheera advises remembering how an exit felt so that, next time, you know your worth and what you give and get in return. ([12:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=767) [12:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=771)) - The host suggests setting sabbatical rules, such as no back-to-back meetings, to leave space to be bored, think and journal. ([21:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1261)) - Zaheera suggests that returning to work after a break should mean treating the work and yourself differently. Otherwise the growth may not be there. ([39:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2380) [40:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2442)) - Zaheera plans financially for future breaks and proposes a two-month break every three years, which she says also lets the team step up. ([48:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2937) [49:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2994) [50:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=3013)) - The host notes that promised sabbaticals can disappear once a restructure starts. ([50:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=3043)) **Who it's for:** Professionals, especially senior people and women in corporate roles, who are considering a career break or going through a restructure. It also suits managers deciding how to respond to staff who want sabbaticals. **Facts stated in the episode** - Zaheera had worked for twenty years without taking a break before this sabbatical. ([01:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=100)) - Zaheera is originally South African, now based in Canada, and has been out of South Africa for ten years. ([01:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=84)) - She had spent just over three and a half years on her doctorate when she decided to take the break. ([02:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=153)) - She planned to write her thesis in February and March, defend it in April, and graduate in June. She defended in April. ([18:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1102) [23:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1400)) - She booked a month-long trip to climb a Himalayan mountain and do humanitarian work with refugees in Egypt. ([24:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1462) [24:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1474)) - Zaheera proposes a two-month break every three years. ([50:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=3013)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Why do people feel they need to justify taking a sabbatical?** A: Zaheera says her to-do list and thesis were ways to justify the break. She links this to her self-worth: she needed a reason in order to give herself permission. ([05:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=315) [05:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=328)) **Q: How long does it take to settle into a sabbatical?** A: The host says it takes about six to eight weeks to disentangle your identity from your employer. Zaheera says things changed for her around six to eight weeks in, in mid to late February. ([18:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1125) [19:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1195) [21:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1314)) **Q: What does it feel like to leave during a corporate restructure?** A: Zaheera says she felt disposable and like just a number. She describes the process as a harsh reality after giving the organisation her loyalty. ([11:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=705) [12:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=767)) **Q: How can I do introspection during a career break?** A: Zaheera describes sitting still, noticing what her body feels, asking what is driving the feeling, and then examining the beliefs and biases behind it before deciding whether to change them. ([34:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2077) [34:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2077) [35:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2100) [35:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2124) [35:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2158)) **Q: Should I hide a sabbatical in job interviews?** A: Zaheera says she used to hide it but now talks about it openly as growth. She interviews employers as much as they interview her and asks about culture and fit. ([46:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2765) [46:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2780) [46:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2796)) **Q: What should I negotiate for when returning to work after a break?** A: Zaheera says she now negotiates on flexibility, such as where and how she works, thinking time, and working remotely, rather than mainly on salary. ([46:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2765) [47:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2863)) **Q: Is taking a sabbatical a privilege?** A: Zaheera says being able to take a break and be financially okay is a huge privilege. She adds that how we treat and respect ourselves is something anybody can give themselves. ([42:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2566) [43:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2638)) **Q: How can a manager support employees who need a break?** A: Zaheera says she would be more supportive and might even suggest a break to people showing signs of burnout. She suggests a two-month break every three years, which she says lets teams step up. ([48:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2937) [50:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=3013) [52:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=3121)) ### Passage: Loss of purpose in the first month [15:34–17:28, 357 words] Note (AI): Zaheera describes how tying her identity to work led to lost purpose and low self-worth, and how she filled her time to avoid the pain. Zaheera Soomar, guest [15:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=934): > When I came back, I struggled. So the first few weeks were about really getting comfortable with the idea that I'm not working. It's the first time in my life I'm not working. I almost felt like a loss of purpose. I think because I tied a lot of my identity and my purpose to my work, I was living out my passion and living out my purpose through my work. So when my work stopped, it almost felt like that stopped. And I was wondering, like, who am I? What am I even doing? What is my purpose here? What am I achieving on a daily basis, you know? And I felt a bit of loss of identity. My self-worth was extremely low. I started questioning myself and wondering, did I do the right thing? Did I do the right thing for myself? Did I do the right thing for my family? I didn't yet start thinking about kind of next steps or what's, I was just living in the moment. So I would say that a big part of January was my first month was just struggling with the fact that my purpose and my passion were tied to my work and now it's kind of lost. My self-worth was low. My identity was being questioned. And I didn't know what I was getting up for every morning, apart from my family, but I didn't know what I was getting up every morning for. And I think that's where my to-do list started getting built. And I think part of the intention was to fill it so that I wouldn't sit in an idle state feeling and wondering all the things that I was feeling. So it was kind of a numb the pain type of thing. If I keep myself busy, I don't feel this pain. So I started filling my time with some of these remedial things on my to-do list, like paint my room, because it would fill my time. And I could feel some sense of self-worth and like that I was achieving something, I was doing something with my time. ### Passage: Job hunting leads to permission to just be [18:45–20:37, 358 words] Note (AI): The turning point about two months in, when a scattered job search pushed her to stop justifying the break and reflect on what she wants. Zaheera Soomar, guest [18:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1125): > So in Feb, I started thinking, okay, I should start applying for jobs because at this level, when you're applying for senior roles, it does take a few months. And so, you know, you need to give yourself that few months. So I started applying for roles and I started realizing very quickly that the economy, even globally and specifically even in Canada, was quite changed. There were a lot of retrenchments taking place in a lot of different organizations. The types of roles that I was interested in, there weren't too many of them, and a lot of those roles were actually the ones being retrenched a lot of the times. And so I had a bit of this, I don't know if it was a reality of like, oh my God, this is not going to be as easy to get back into the workplace as I thought it would be. But also while I was applying for roles, I felt a bit scrambled. I took a moment and I realized, you're applying for these very different roles all over the show, and I felt a bit scrambled. And I told myself, no, you need to actually take the time to think about what it is that you want. And I had that realization probably six to eight weeks in. So in Feb, I would say mid to late Feb. And That's when things actually started to change for me, because that's when I started, I think, giving myself permission to just be, to just regroup, rethink, reset, and not have to have it all figured out. And that's when I just started to breathe more and stopped needing a justification as to why I'm on a sabbatical. And I was, and I started saying things like, I'm taking a break because I deserve one. And I don't know what I'm going to do in this time, and that's okay. And I don't know what comes next, but I'll figure it out, but that's okay. And it wasn't telling other people that, but it was my ability to tell myself that and feel okay with it. ### Passage: What surprised her about the sabbatical [29:26–32:13, 492 words] Note (AI): She sets out her shifts: reclaiming self-worth from the organisation, dropping the need to achieve, and changing from sabbatical cynic to advocate. Zaheera Soomar, guest [29:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1766): > A few things. I think one is how much of my self-worth I attach to the organization and the role that I was in and kind of just trying to reclaim that back and attach it to myself and what I've experienced and done and achieved in my life as opposed to attaching it to an organization or role. So I've made that change and I, I feel more, my self-worth is back, back up. I feel more validated, but validated by myself and by the people that love me as opposed to being validated by an organization. so that's one. The second is I think I've calmed down, and I don't know how best to explain this, but I've always been someone that just needed to be doing something and getting something done and ticking off something. I don't have that need anymore. I don't have that need to be constantly chasing something or achieving something. I can go through a day now where I can say I was not productive and probably didn't achieve anything and feel absolutely okay. So I've given myself the permission to not be that constant overachiever that I've always been, and I've, and that's been great. And it's, it's refreshing, and it's, I feel I've lifted a burden off my shoulder by not expecting myself to be there. So that was a change. I think the other big change is my view of sabbaticals and breaks. I had a very cynical view of taking a break or sabbatical. I've gone through my career always feeling that it was weak. Even when women took mat leave for like 12 months, I would be like, what are you doing for 12 months, you know? It's a really long time, it's gonna impact your career. Why would you take 12 months for a maternity leave? I never took long maternity leaves, I always kind of needed to get back out there. I mean, I've always come across both men and women, and more women, that have taken breaks in their career because they wanted to be stay-at-home moms for a period of time, you know, it was a choice they made. And I, I always questioned it, and I always, I don't know that I supported or bought into it, or I didn't know that I saw it as positive. And my mind has shifted on that. I have a very different view on sabbaticals. I actually now feel it's probably a must. I think that's absolutely amazing and I advocate for people taking sabbaticals every now and so often in your life, if not for to just regroup, but it also serves a purpose of realigning what you're really interested and passionate about in. So I would say the third thing is my view on taking a break, taking a sabbatical has changed. I've gone from being a cynic to being a very big advocate of it. ### Passage: Her four-layer approach to introspection [34:37–36:59, 463 words] Note (AI): A step-by-step description of how she reflects, from sitting still to examining the beliefs and biases behind her feelings. Zaheera Soomar, guest [34:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2077): > One is just sitting with myself, so not having to, not having something to do, not even reading a book, not even watching something, not having, not being able to just tick off something, but it's just being able to sit, right? Calm my mind and just, number one, being able to sit. So that's, for me, part of introspection and reflection. It's just being in the moment. The second thing I think is being in tune with your feelings and what you're feeling. I've learned to kind of just Close my eyes and feel what my body's feeling. So be in touch with what are your feet, what is your feet feeling? What are your legs feeling? What is your gut feeling? You know, what is your, what are your shoulders feeling? Like where's your head space? Just really being able to dig deep and feel what is your body feeling. I think the third thing is going a bit deeper to understand why you're feeling that way. So what's driving this feeling? If you're feeling stressed or anxious, if you're feeling a bit of press on your shoulders, what in this moment is driving that feeling? Like, is it, what are you worried about? Is it fear of something? Is it a worry? Are you, you know, are you worried about finances? Are you worried about how people think of you? What you, how you're seen? Are you worried about being term unemployed? Because that was a worry about for me as well at one point in time. So just trying to understand what's causing that feeling. And then trying to go even deeper, which is what are your beliefs and your stigmas and your biases That's the root cause of those feelings. Why are you worried about being unemployed? Like, what assumptions do you have in your head that's driving a fear of being unemployed? Because if you are financially stable and you've decided to take a break, then what's wrong with that, you know? So just basically being able to just take, just in the moment, sit, take a step back, recognize beliefs, biases, assumptions that I have, and then making decisions of if I want to hold on to it or if I need to break it, if I need to let go of it, if I need to change that belief, if I need to prove it differently. So for me, that's a lot of my reflection and my introspection was just about that, really being in touch with myself, my belief system, why it exists. Do I actually believe it? What led me to that? And do I want to change it and challenge it? And do I want to have a different outlook on it? ### Passage: Interviewing and negotiating differently after the break [46:05–48:41, 503 words] Note (AI): Concrete changes in how she approaches interviews and negotiation: openness about the sabbatical, questions about culture, and asking for flexibility. Zaheera Soomar, guest [46:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2765): > So now that I'm in the interview stage with a few organizations, I also find the way that I'm conducting the interviews different, how I talk about the sabbatical, why the sabbatical, what it, I actually talk about it very openly in my interviews. And I, I don't hide the fact. I think previously I probably would have tried to hide the fact that I'm on a sabbatical or not really kind of brought any attention to it. I'm very open about it now. And I'm like, this is great. It's been amazing growth for me. I talk very openly about it. That's the, that's the first change. The second change is I find I'm interviewing them as much as they are interviewing me. This needs to be a mutual benefit for both of us. You need to want me, but I also need to want you as an organization, and even the, the kind of the hiring manager, right? I find the questions that I'm asking in these interviews are different to the questions I've asked before. It's less about the, skill-based questions, but it's more about the culture, the fit, how you make decisions, what do you really intrinsically care about, you know, how do you see your employees, how do you see your people? I've been asking those types of questions. So, you know, just things that I've found in this past year that I actually deeply care about and deeply impact me, I started asking about those things. And I find when I negotiate, I'm negotiating on things that I never negotiated before. So I've never really had to negotiate on salary, but like most people have to negotiate on salary. That's usually the first negotiation point. Can we land on a good salary that we both agree with and benefits and bonuses, et cetera. I find I'm negotiating more on things like flexibility. Can I be flexible in where I work, how I work, when I give my thinking time, et cetera? Can I work remotely? If I wanted to go spend a month in this country and I'm happy to work there, could I do that, you know? I'm finding that I'm asking those types of questions, and part of it's because I really just, you know, I think similar to you, we've explored this year, right? We've gone abroad, we've lived, and I've just appreciated the beauty of that time, and I don't want to lose that, and I don't only want to get that when I go on a next sabbatical, take a break. I want to try and build some of these things that I've really loved in this time into my daily practice or into my normal routine. So, so yeah, I'm approaching things differently. I don't know where I'm gonna land, but I hope that my, because my approach is different, I hope that I'm gonna land a little bit closer to what's gonna serve me well than what I did before. ### Passage: Supporting others' breaks and planning the next [48:57–50:25, 311 words] Note (AI): Shows how she would handle sabbaticals as a manager and how she plans financially for regular future breaks. Zaheera Soomar, guest [48:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2937): > Both. I think both. I think I'd definitely be a lot more supportive and encouraging for people who want to take it that are reporting to me. I think I would show up in that conversation very differently and very supportive. Even, things like maternity breaks and things. Not that I never supported that, but I think I, my view on it has all changed. When I see people burning out or potentially needing one, I might even suggest it and say, hey, have you ever thought of taking a break? Like, I've been through one, it's rejuvenating. Let's talk through it. Have you ever considered one? So I actually think I might advocate a little bit for it. For myself, absolutely. I am already dreaming about the day that I can take another one. And financially, it's being built in. And I, you know, I was talking to my husband the other day, and we were talking about Okay, you know, I'm looking for a role financially. What do we have to agree to in order to kind of, you know, let's agree on what number that looks like at a minimum so we pay our bills. And I said to him, and I want more because I'd like to save for the next time I want to take a break and I, we can financially cover that break because that's important to me. And I'm already thinking about, you know, at least a couple of years down the line, I, and I don't need, I don't feel like I need to leave work for it, but it's like, you know, every three years, take a two months break and it's a, it's a long leave essentially. Go and, you know, shut off it. I also feel it gives people the opportunity to step up, your team to step up. ### Quotes > "It's almost like I needed a reason to take a sabbatical in order to give myself permission to take a sabbatical." > — Zaheera Soomar, guest · [05:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=328) > "remember this feeling, because when you next commit to something, know your worth and know what you're giving and know what you're getting in return." > — Zaheera Soomar, guest · [12:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=771) > "If I keep myself busy, I don't feel this pain." > — Zaheera Soomar, guest · [17:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1030) > "I'm taking a break because I deserve one. And I don't know what I'm going to do in this time, and that's okay." > — Zaheera Soomar, guest · [20:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1222) > "I always feel when I give back to my home, my home looks after me." > — Zaheera Soomar, guest · [22:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1359) > "It's almost like freedom by talking to strangers, something like that." > — Petro du Pisani, host · [29:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1743) > "I've gone from being a cynic to being a very big advocate of it." > — Zaheera Soomar, guest · [32:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1929) > "I haven't spoken to a single person yet who has regretted taking the break." > — Petro du Pisani, host · [33:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2022) > "I think how we treat ourselves, how we respect ourselves, the level of self-worth, I think anybody can give that to themselves." > — Zaheera Soomar, guest · [44:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2642) > "I find I'm interviewing them as much as they are interviewing me." > — Zaheera Soomar, guest · [46:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2798) > "so I would say he's had a ten-year sabbatical." > — Zaheera Soomar, guest · [53:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=3236) ### Claims > "I am originally South African. I'm now based in Canada with my family for the past, I've been out of South Africa for the past ten years." > — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Background · [01:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=84) > "And in twenty years, I've never taken a break. I've always been really scared to take a break, take a sabbatical, even take long leave when it was due." > — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Taking a sabbatical · [01:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=100) > "I was also busy with my doctorate, and I had done around just over three and a half years. And I was busy with my thesis for about a year leading up to that decision last year." > — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Doctorate · [02:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=153) > "Part of generating this to-do list or having a reason was also part of me justifying why I was taking a sabbatical. It was also linked to kind of my self-worth. I struggled a lot with that. It's almost like I needed a reason to take a sabbatical in order to give myself permission to take a sabbatical." > — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Identity and self-worth · [05:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=315) > "if you've been with a specific company or corporate for a long time, your identity just does get tangled up into the work that you're doing." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Identity and self-worth · [05:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=342) > "It's very hard for women to justify a break in their CV or in, you know, their, their career, even when it comes to mat leave, where, where it's a very obvious, you know, break that you should take. Even that sometimes can have an impact." > — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Gender and career breaks · [07:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=442) > "I felt, if I can use the word, and maybe this is hard or harsh, I felt disposable through that process because when I got to the end of the process, I really felt you are just a number in an organization." > — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Corporate restructuring · [11:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=705) > "But it's also something I remind, I told myself, remember this feeling, because when you next commit to something, know your worth and know what you're giving and know what you're getting in return." > — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Corporate restructuring · [12:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=767) > "good to remember the feelings so that you're ever in the position where you have to do the restructuring, that you can be more humane about it." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Corporate restructuring · [13:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=784) > "so the very first thing I decided was, I want to go on pilgrimage. I needed to just breathe. I needed to surrender. I needed to give into my faith. I needed to find inspiration." > — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Taking a sabbatical · [14:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=898) > "I almost felt like a loss of purpose. I think because I tied a lot of my identity and my purpose to my work, I was living out my passion and living out my purpose through my work. So when my work stopped, it almost felt like that stopped." > — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Identity and self-worth · [15:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=946) > "And I think part of the intention was to fill it so that I wouldn't sit in an idle state feeling and wondering all the things that I was feeling. So it was kind of a numb the pain type of thing. If I keep myself busy, I don't feel this pain." > — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Identity and self-worth · [16:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1018) > "So I had been very strict with myself and I said, okay, I'm going to write my thesis the whole of Feb and March. In April, I'm defending because in June, I want to graduate." > — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Doctorate · [18:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1102) > "So I started applying for roles and I started realizing very quickly that the economy, even globally and specifically even in Canada, was quite changed. There were a lot of retrenchments taking place in a lot of different organizations." > — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Re-entering the workplace · [18:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1136) > "That's when things actually started to change for me, because that's when I started, I think, giving myself permission to just be, to just regroup, rethink, reset, and not have to have it all figured out." > — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Taking a sabbatical · [19:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1195) > "I had a couple of rules for my sabbatical. It was firstly, no back-to-back meetings, keeping space open for me to be able to be bored and think and be creative again and journal and just figure out who I am and who I want to be." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Taking a sabbatical · [21:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1261) > "It, it takes, yeah, like I, I think it takes six to eight weeks. For you to actually, disentangle your identity from your, from your employer and go, who am I without being attached to this big corporates?" > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Identity and self-worth · [21:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1314) > "In April, I defended my, my thesis, so that was over and that was done and I felt this huge sense of relief. That also in itself was a very big moment for me because I, I had set this goal for my sabbatical of completing my thesis." > — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Doctorate · [23:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1400) > "So I decided I'm going to go and climb one of the mountains in the Himalaya. I'm going to take the time out. I wanted to do that. so I booked a trip. I started training for it." > — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Solo adventures · [24:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1462) > "And I decided I wanted to do some humanitarian work in Egypt as well with all the refugees. So I added that onto the back end of the trip, and I basically booked a month-long trip." > — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Solo adventures · [24:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1474) > "I've, you know, for the, for most of my career, I've been I'm, I'm sad to say this, it's shameful, but I've been fitting my kids in, and this time I really could just dedicate time to what they wanted to do." > — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Family · [26:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1576) > "It's, it's something sometimes very freeing to be, in a whole group of strangers, who don't know you. because you get to know yourself almost better by telling your story to them." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Solo adventures · [27:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1634) > "in the beginning, I would give these answers of what I thought was right. And towards the end, it was really just a very honest answer as to why on earth am I here on this mountain and climbing this thing." > — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Solo adventures · [27:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1670) > "I feel more validated, but validated by myself and by the people that love me as opposed to being validated by an organization." > — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Identity and self-worth · [29:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1793) > "I can go through a day now where I can say I was not productive and probably didn't achieve anything and feel absolutely okay." > — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Identity and self-worth · [30:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1825) > "I had a very cynical view of taking a break or sabbatical. I've gone through my career always feeling that it was weak." > — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Taking a sabbatical · [30:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1856) > "I actually now feel it's probably a must. I think that's absolutely amazing and I advocate for people taking sabbaticals every now and so often in your life, if not for to just regroup, but it also serves a purpose of realigning what you're really interested and passionate about in." > — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Taking a sabbatical · [31:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1905) > "These are expectations that I've placed on myself. And I've started asking myself, why? Why have you done this to yourself? Why on earth would you put yourself through this?" > — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Identity and self-worth · [32:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1955) > "And then I haven't spoken to a single person yet who has regretted taking the break. And I'm just like, how do we normalize this?" > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Taking a sabbatical · [33:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2021) > "One is just sitting with myself, so not having to, not having something to do, not even reading a book, not even watching something, not having, not being able to just tick off something, but it's just being able to sit, right?" > — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Reflection and introspection · [34:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2077) > "The second thing I think is being in tune with your feelings and what you're feeling. I've learned to kind of just Close my eyes and feel what my body's feeling." > — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Reflection and introspection · [35:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2100) > "I think the third thing is going a bit deeper to understand why you're feeling that way. So what's driving this feeling?" > — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Reflection and introspection · [35:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2124) > "And then trying to go even deeper, which is what are your beliefs and your stigmas and your biases That's the root cause of those feelings." > — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Reflection and introspection · [35:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2158) > "So, for example, one of the decisions I've made is I don't want to go back to corporate. I've worked in quite a number of corporates. I've also worked in mid-sized, smaller firms, and I've also worked in startup firms." > — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Re-entering the workplace · [38:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2300) > "I do genuinely now understand the link between where I work and what I do and how it ties to my happiness and then how I show up in every other aspect of my life." > — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Re-entering the workplace · [39:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2380) > "I think people could go back to that same space, but the idea is to treat it differently, treat yourself differently, you would do it differently. If you're going to go back and do it all the same, I'm not sure if the growth is there." > — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Re-entering the workplace · [40:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2442) > "But even if you go into a job, for whatever reason you're going into, at least you know what you stand for and, and what you will put up with and what you won't put up with." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Re-entering the workplace · [42:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2529) > "It is a huge privilege to be able to take a break and take a sabbatical and be financially okay. It is a huge privilege to be able to put boundaries down and parameters down and say, I'm only going to type go after this type of role." > — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Privilege and choice · [42:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2566) > "So I think there are certain things that fall on the side of privilege, but I think how we treat ourselves, how we respect ourselves, the level of self-worth, I think anybody can give that to themselves. I don't think that that's a, a privilege aspect." > — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Privilege and choice · [43:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2638) > "I've actually gone through and made a list of really looking deeply into organizations, their values, their purpose. Does it align with my value and my purpose?" > — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Re-entering the workplace · [45:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2735) > "I think previously I probably would have tried to hide the fact that I'm on a sabbatical or not really kind of brought any attention to it. I'm very open about it now." > — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Re-entering the workplace · [46:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2780) > "The second change is I find I'm interviewing them as much as they are interviewing me. This needs to be a mutual benefit for both of us." > — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Re-entering the workplace · [46:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2796) > "I find I'm negotiating more on things like flexibility. Can I be flexible in where I work, how I work, when I give my thinking time, et cetera? Can I work remotely?" > — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Re-entering the workplace · [47:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2863) > "And I said to him, and I want more because I'd like to save for the next time I want to take a break and I, we can financially cover that break because that's important to me." > — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Taking a sabbatical · [49:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2994) > "every three years, take a two months break and it's a, it's a long leave essentially. Go and, you know, shut off it. I also feel it gives people the opportunity to step up, your team to step up." > — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Taking a sabbatical · [50:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=3013) > "I had asked my manager when I started, whether in two or three years' time I could potentially take three months off, and he actually said yes. But then when a, but then when a restructure starts happening, then all of those things are off the table." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Corporate restructuring · [50:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=3043) > "I certainly would advocate for people taking a break when it's needed and maybe even fleshing out what are the signs of a sabbatical being, you know, what are the signs of a looming sabbatical that's needed?" > — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Gender and career breaks · [52:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=3121) > "And so for the past nine, ten years, he's been doing a bit of this and that and running his own businesses. And I don't want to say that that's a sabbatical, but it is, I've, I've taken the pressure off him financially to provide anything," > — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Family · [53:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=3214) > "the fact that I could do my MBA and my doctorate while being married and having kids, you fully supported that." > — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Doctorate · [54:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=3285) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) From Doing to Being. Episode 8 of a series of podcasts on taking conscious breaks from work. In this episode, Petro du Pisani speaks with Dr Zaheera Soomar about her transformative sabbatical after 20 years in the corporate world. Zaheera shares her journey of overcoming self-doubt, regaining a sense of purpose, and finding balance through reflection, adventure, and completing her doctoral thesis. She reflects on the importance of breaks, work-life alignment, and prioritising values as she prepares to re-enter the workforce with a renewed perspective. This inspiring conversation emphasises the value of intentional pauses for self-discovery and long-term well-being. More about Petro du Pisani and On Change here · Connect with Petro · Solid Gold Podcasts · Solid Gold Podcasts ## #032 The Thoughtful Time-Out | Gargi Mishra - Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/032-the-thoughtful-time-out/ - Date: 2024-09-23 (as at 2024-09-23) - Guest: Gargi Mishra - Host: Petro du Pisani - Themes: Intentional career breaks, Burnout and overwork, Career pivots and reinvention, Foresight and futurism, Self-care habits, Women returning to work, Financial planning for breaks - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1484836 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Gargi Mishra - foresight practitioner - Trained geologist and Kimberlite petrologist who spent twenty-two years in mining, then pivoted into innovation and digital transformation and became a futurist. She was recently resident futurist or foresight manager for De Beers. In their own words: > "And that's what made me from a trained geologist, then I become a Kimberlite Petrologist, which is more, technical space, and then pivoting to the innovation and new technology space," [01:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=68) > "I accidentally become more like a futurist, which is foresight practitioner, which I am now, where what I do is read the emerging signals, what's coming in space of technology, society, sustainability, and then forecast what does it mean for the future." [01:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=96) > "And since I spent twenty-two years in mining, for me it's very natural to think of What does it mean for the mining?" [01:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=112) > "Recently, I finished working as a resident futurist or foresight manager for DBears. We are, I was tracking trend across economy, society, politics, technology, and thinking about what does it mean for the diamond as industry." [02:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=132) > "One very much focused in mining as exploration geologist, working across operation Angola, DRC, Botswana, and then pivoted, to the innovation space." [03:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=202) > "Even if you see my whole life, my career pivoted every two to three years, because if I, I keep doing, if I enjoy and I'm learning, but then I pivot to the next." [26:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1562) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Host Petro du Pisani, who is on his own sabbatical after 25 years in corporate, talks with Gargi Mishra about career breaks. Gargi is a geologist turned futurist. She took an unplanned sabbatical early in COVID after months of 18-hour days, when her young son suggested buying her a bed. She describes using the break to reskill in sustainability and to become more selective about work, which led her into a foresight role at De Beers. She also covers family reactions, the self-care habits she kept, her current intentional mini break, and advice on planning finances before stepping away. **Key ideas** - Gargi describes her first sabbatical as triggered by overwork. She was up 18 hours a day for over nine months, and her son's remark about buying her a bed made her stop. ([02:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=177) [04:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=247) [04:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=259) [04:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=270)) - Gargi says the break taught her patience and the ability to say no to opportunities that do not connect to her direction. ([08:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=511) [09:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=554) [09:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=554)) - Gargi argues that a new career after a break may not carry the same path or recognition. You start rebuilding yourself as a brand, like an intern. ([12:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=772) [12:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=778) [13:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=799)) - The host frames the choice as deciding whose race you are running. Rejoining the same race means losing ground. ([12:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=726) [12:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=744)) - Gargi observes that women in mining used to vanish after breaks. Companies such as BHP, Rio Tinto and Google are now welcoming them back. ([09:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=572) [10:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=645) [11:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=671)) - Gargi keeps self-care habits after the break: exercise at least four days a week, online yoga, long walks, and technology to track water and walking. ([18:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1113) [18:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1113) [19:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1147)) - Gargi advises financial planning before any break or startup, with a six-month to one-year buffer. ([27:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1659) [27:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1679) [28:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1696)) **Lessons** - Gargi suggests using a break for deliberate upskilling and reflection, not only rest, and accepting only roles that speak to you. ([06:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=370) [07:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=437) [07:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=464)) - Gargi warns against saying yes to everything. Aligned opportunities are worth waiting for, even if a big offer appears. ([08:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=511) [09:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=554)) - The host and Gargi both stress protecting health and personal time after returning, for example by keeping healthy time in the calendar. ([17:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1026) [18:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1113) [20:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1217)) - Gargi recommends a financial buffer of six months to a year before leaving work. ([27:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1679) [28:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1683)) - Gargi says that having done a break once made it easier and braver to take another. ([25:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1502) [25:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1516)) **Who it's for:** Professionals, especially women in mining or corporate roles, who feel burnt out or stuck and are weighing a sabbatical, a career pivot or a return to work after time away. **Facts stated in the episode** - Gargi spent twenty-two years in mining. ([01:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=112)) - She was up for 18 hours a day for more than nine months before her first break. ([04:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=247)) - Her son was just turning three when he suggested buying her a bed. ([04:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=259)) - She spent seven to eight months upskilling in sustainability and decarbonization. ([07:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=437)) - She is writing two chapters on foresight for an upcoming textbook. ([02:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=156)) - Her career pivoted every two to three years. ([26:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1562)) - She recommends a six-month to one-year financial buffer before a break. ([27:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1679)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: What made Gargi Mishra take a sabbatical?** A: She had been up 18 hours a day for more than nine months during COVID. When her three-year-old son suggested buying her a bed because he never saw her sleep, she decided to stop. ([02:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=177) [04:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=247) [04:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=259) [04:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=270)) **Q: Did she resign or get retrenched?** A: She resigned. Her company was restructuring and offered a retrenchment instead, which gave her a financial cushion for the unplanned break. ([05:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=333)) **Q: What did she do during her career break?** A: She spent seven to eight months upskilling in sustainability and decarbonization through online courses, and deliberately accepted only roles that spoke to her. ([06:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=370) [07:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=437)) **Q: What books helped her during the break?** A: She read Robin Sharma's Everyday Hero and an excerpt of Sally Buxton's Soul Sabbatical. Everyday Hero showed her she did not need to be an executive leader to be a hero. ([09:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=572) [09:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=589) [09:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=597)) **Q: Is it harder for women to return after a career break in mining?** A: Gargi says women traditionally vanished after breaks. In the last five to six years, organisations such as BHP, Rio Tinto and Google have been welcoming them back. ([10:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=645) [11:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=671)) **Q: How do you avoid slipping back into overwork after a sabbatical?** A: Gargi exercises at least four days a week, does online yoga, takes long walks, and uses alarms and tracking for water and walking. The host suggests keeping healthy time in the calendar and designing work around it. ([18:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1113) [18:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1113) [19:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1147) [20:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1217)) **Q: How much money should you save before taking a break?** A: Gargi advises at least a six-month to one-year buffer. She adds that a startup will not pay you within three months. ([27:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1659) [27:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1679) [28:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1696)) **Q: Why is she on a mini break now?** A: Her organisation was restructuring. Rather than take a misaligned alternate role, she is seeking the right opportunity in strategy, foresight and academia while writing textbook chapters. ([02:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=156) [22:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1323) [23:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1382) [24:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1465)) ### Passage: The trigger for her first intentional sabbatical [02:57–05:12, 394 words] Note (AI): Gargi's own account of working 18-hour days during lockdown and the moment her young son made her stop. Gargi Mishra, guest [02:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=177): > I did, actually the very first intentional break I took just when the COVID started, and that was the, like, deliberate sabbatical. And why did you take that break? So that's very interesting because when I took that break, just before that, I was not planning to take a break. I was in my flow because if you see my career is divi- can be divided into two decades. One very much focused in mining as exploration geologist, working across operation Angola, DRC, Botswana, and then pivoted, to the innovation space. So when I took the break, pretty much I was on my Like a full force flow. I was getting the traction, I was getting the work. So I was not thinking about the break that time because it was my time to shine in that space, which I just found my new niche, which was digital transformation. But then the COVID hit and I realized most of the companies and organization and as a whole, we were not prepared to understand what does it mean for a new world. And especially it took a lot of toll on women, especially working women with the family. And I realized I was working for 18 hour plus. When I say working, it's family work and professional work, but I was up for 18 hours for more than nine months. And then one day, just near my birthday time, my son, which was just turning three, he proposed that, we should buy a bed for me because he never saw me sleeping. And that was something like a trigger for me that I don't want to be a role model for my child who thinks that sleeping is That taking rest is bad. And he used to sometimes, say like that, that I don't want to sleep because mama never sleep. And that trigger just made me think this is not the way to pursue. And especially in lockdown, there was not much support system around. It made me to pause and say, okay, I'm going to take a break because we didn't know when the lockdown will over. So it's kind of a indefinite break and just pause. Okay, been there, done that. Now it's my time to just focus on my family and myself. And that was the reason I took a break. ### Passage: From rest to reskilling and finding the De Beers role [06:10–08:14, 387 words] Note (AI): Shows how the break moved from rest to deliberate upskilling and selective job seeking, which led to her foresight role. Gargi Mishra, guest [06:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=370): > Initially, when I took the break, because it was just triggered with this conversation that you don't take a rest. And then when I look at myself at the mirror, I was looking tired, very old. And I realized I'm just like a robot, just ticking box things. So that time there was no so what moment for me. It was just, okay, I'm going to stop whatever I'm doing so that I can be with just 24 hour focusing on my family, my child, and remember what he's doing or saying. And then after few weeks and month, because if you are work colleague, you've been to work, you always start thinking. And then I, I start getting this itch that, okay, this work is good. I'm enjoying being full-time mom, but I need to do something else. So I start thinking about, was it really a good decision to take a break? But then I again, and that was my reflection moment. And then I sat down, I said, no, I needed this break. I don't want it to keep on doing what I was doing. Rather think about why I took this break. And it can't be just because I need to take care of the family and house. It has to be beyond that. And that's where I decided for seven, eight months, I'm going to focus Only on, upskilling myself into sustainability, decarbonization. So I did few course, online courses, but then also being very deliberate that I'm not going to accept any role coming my way or apply intentionally unless the role speak to me. And then start thinking about every day where as I was learning what I actually enjoy most. And I realized from last ten years, even though I was doing hands-on digital transformation roadmap, benchmarking, implementing, the part I enjoy most was looking into future trends and then bringing back them to life. So, but then I didn't have a word for it, what it really mean. And then I saw the advertisement by De Beers. It was pretty much the job which I was like enlisted, I want to do this. So it was very good alignment, and that was the reason I said, okay, this is the job, speak to me, so let's go back. ### Passage: Books, trends and women coming back after breaks [09:32–11:36, 386 words] Note (AI): Covers the reading that sustained her and her view on how the industry now treats women who return after a break. Gargi Mishra, guest [09:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=572): > Yes. like, because my break was so sudden. And because I love to read, I love to research, so I start reading about who other people have done this, or what are the framework or things I can apply. So coincidentally, I came across two books. One was Robin Sharma, Everyday Hero, and that book was kind of give me strength and be the pillar that whatever I'm doing, I can be a hero. I don't have to be executive leader to be a hero. so that gave me kind of a comfort and strength and bravery to do what I do. And then also I read, not necessarily the full book, but I read a script of the book from the Sally Buxton, Soul Sabbatical. And there were a lot of articles going around the same time. So that helped me to understand I'm not the only woman or only person taking this break. And because I love to track trends, I also start seeing there was this emerging trend in COVID work from anywhere, this no-bed lifestyle, and then millennial and Gen Z, how they work digitally, you know, they work few Instead they take a time off for their, what they want to do in life. So those things kind of inspired me that I'm not the only one doing it, and it's okay to take a break. Because traditionally as a woman, especially as Indian woman breaking into mine, it was always like that, if you go off, you're gone, you vanished. And I've seen some of the very successful women actually disappear, and one time in my life I used to actually say, we can put a billboard of the, you know, successful women who win top hundred women in mine, but where they are, and they take a break, and they somehow never bounce back. But in last five to six year, we see the different trend. Women are coming back, organization are welcoming, either it's BHP, Rio Tinto, even Google. This cross industry pollination, giving opportunity to you can take a break. So I knew that if I go off and I decide not to come back or back, it won't be a obstacle for me. I guess industry won't be stopping me. It will be my own decision. ### Passage: Self-care habits kept after the break [18:33–19:58, 257 words] Note (AI): Practical habits (exercise minimums, alarms, tracking water and walking) she uses to avoid falling back into overwork. Gargi Mishra, guest [18:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1113): > Making sure I exercise, whatever happen, so try to do all the seven days. I started, practicing yoga exercise, so joined the online classes. So because it's online, you have to show up, so being committed. So initially, like for example, in the break, I'm doing seven days. Now it can be four days, three days, but being committed that it's not going to go below four days, making sure I go for long walks. So those things which I picked up, and then also being very aware if I'm skipping meal, it's not suppo- like earlier when I used to work, sometime it will go hours without thinking about water, food, now being deliberate, putting those alarms, kind of using technology. So I track, how much I walk, how much I drink water. So using technology to keep me on track of what I was not doing. And it's interesting because these technologies were there, but it's just you were not aware of until you hit that rock bottom. So now being more aware of how I'm feeling, practicing mindfulness, and all those tools were around us. People talk about it, even, you know, if somebody say, will say, yes, be mindful of how you think, how you behave, how you eat, read, all those things. But now I think I've become more deliberate about it and being committed to myself that, yes, I'm going to do exercise, whatever. And, and funny enough, now I find the time because it's, I raise the awareness about it. ### Passage: Family push back to work and the current mini break [22:03–24:33, 467 words] Note (AI): Explains why she returned to work, and why she chose a focused mini break over taking a misaligned role during a restructure. Gargi Mishra, guest [22:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1323): > I was pretty much into mindset that this is where I hang my boot, I'm not, never coming back. And the one reason I came back, of course, the time gave me thinking what I want to do, but then another push came again from the family in a different way. My mother-in-law, interestingly, she's, she and my husband were saying to me that they, I shouldn't fall into that trap that I want to work, but now because I made a decision not to work for family, I shouldn't go back, because then I will set a wrong example for my son. He will believe that this is the way women should be. So think carefully, trade carefully, do you really don't want to work, or you now want to settle? So don't go. Going to sacrifice mode, stay true to yourself, and I think that also helped me to rethink, and pivot me to this, space. Are you on another mini break right now? No, it's not a mini break in a, say, which I did for the health last time. It's more about the whole organization was going into restructuring, and I thought, do I, and, and as you know, when restructuring happen in any big organization, there are a lot of several mini alternate roles appear, which appeal on that time if you are in that space, but then I wanted to be Since I came this far, I built this thing, I wanted to be in the next space, which is a connecting dot to my career, rather than just opting for another job where, and because if I go for a job which is, I opt for it, but it was not aligned with what I built so far, it's very easy, I will fall into the trap where I was in, you know, five years, six years back. So I said, no, I'm, I'm taking a mini break, but it's not that I'm not actively seeking the opportunity. So in that way, it's different, but I'm very focused on what kind of opportunity I want, and then I also want to start Kind of pivot to the academic career. So in that way, seeking those opportunity, how to go and speak about foresight again. So I took a pause from public speaking. So I start doing some of that. Then I got the opportunity to contribute for two chapters for foresight for a upcoming textbook. So I thought it's a good time to start learning those skill, how to write better. So investing some time to learn writing a skill for academic writing and all. So it's intentional mini break, but it's not that I'm taking a six month or three months break. It's more about seeking the right opportunity. ### Passage: Advice before taking a break [27:39–29:23, 312 words] Note (AI): Her direct advice to people considering a break or a startup: build a financial buffer, plan ahead and expect personal change. Gargi Mishra, guest [27:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1659): > So I do advise other people when they say, I'm go- it's not going well, it's toxic environment, or I'm not feeling good in this place, I want to break because you did it, or some other person did it. So especially for young, professionals when they say to me, or they just want to be entrepreneur because it's cool to be, then I always advise that before you commit, make sure you financially plan for it. So at least you should have a six month or a one year buffer. You can plan your, start thinking about the lifestyle and how you're going to sustain yourself in that environment. Because even if you're starting a startup, you need to understand it's not going to start giving you paycheck from next, like three months. So learning about where, what you're going into, but then also expecting that this will bring change, not just you and, financially, it will also will change you as a person. So how you understand that and go into it, but Think carefully. In my case, even though my sabbatical, the first, the, the one which I call official sabbatical was very, sudden, but I was pivoting myself every few years and few months. So somehow I was kind of used to going in and out of these cycles and going to the different career. But still, if I look back, I will say it's always good to plan ahead, like deep think. And I think it's everybody is different, so everybody will have a different point. Interesting part is when I was listening to you is that we all kind of arrive on the same point, which is what you want to be, what you want to do with your life, and, with whom you want to share maximum time. And that's everybody's arrived to that point. ### Quotes > "he proposed that, we should buy a bed for me because he never saw me sleeping." > — Gargi Mishra, guest · [04:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=265) > "And I realized I'm just like a robot, just ticking box things." > — Gargi Mishra, guest · [06:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=382) > "Break taught me how to say no to the things which are not aligned," > — Gargi Mishra, guest · [09:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=554) > "I don't have to be executive leader to be a hero." > — Gargi Mishra, guest · [09:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=597) > "if you go off, you're gone, you vanished." > — Gargi Mishra, guest · [10:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=651) > "But it depends on whose race you're running." > — Petro du Pisani, host · [12:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=744) > "we are intern in our, somewhere we are always intern, and I'd like to learn something new." > — Gargi Mishra, guest · [12:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=778) > "It's called that I don't have to opt for what being offered. I can just wait for the right time, right opportunity, or build my own opportunity" > — Gargi Mishra, guest · [25:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1516) > "your work is not your life, and it doesn't define you." > — Gargi Mishra, guest · [26:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1583) > "make sure you financially plan for it. So at least you should have a six month or a one year buffer." > — Gargi Mishra, guest · [28:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1683) > "you need to come out of it a different person than would, that went into the sabbatical." > — Petro du Pisani, host · [29:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1770) ### Claims > "And that's what made me from a trained geologist, then I become a Kimberlite Petrologist, which is more, technical space, and then pivoting to the innovation and new technology space," > — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Career pivots and reinvention · [01:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=68) > "I accidentally become more like a futurist, which is foresight practitioner, which I am now, where what I do is read the emerging signals, what's coming in space of technology, society, sustainability, and then forecast what does it mean for the future." > — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Foresight and futurism · [01:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=96) > "And since I spent twenty-two years in mining, for me it's very natural to think of What does it mean for the mining?" > — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Foresight and futurism · [01:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=112) > "Recently, I finished working as a resident futurist or foresight manager for DBears. We are, I was tracking trend across economy, society, politics, technology, and thinking about what does it mean for the diamond as industry." > — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Foresight and futurism · [02:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=132) > "So I'm writing two chapters on foresight for a textbook, upcoming textbook, where I am, writing and focusing on strategy and foresight, how they bridge together, and then also role of foresight in industry 5.0." > — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Foresight and futurism · [02:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=156) > "One very much focused in mining as exploration geologist, working across operation Angola, DRC, Botswana, and then pivoted, to the innovation space." > — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Career pivots and reinvention · [03:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=202) > "And I realized I was working for 18 hour plus. When I say working, it's family work and professional work, but I was up for 18 hours for more than nine months." > — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Burnout and overwork · [04:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=247) > "And then one day, just near my birthday time, my son, which was just turning three, he proposed that, we should buy a bed for me because he never saw me sleeping." > — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Burnout and overwork · [04:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=259) > "And that was something like a trigger for me that I don't want to be a role model for my child who thinks that sleeping is That taking rest is bad." > — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Burnout and overwork · [04:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=270) > "rather than taking it as a resignation, they offer me, why not I take a retrenchment, which unwittingly helped me that time that because I didn't plan for this break, I didn't plan for my finances, but at least it gave me some cushion to prepare for what's coming and what's ahead." > — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Financial planning for breaks · [05:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=333) > "And that's where I decided for seven, eight months, I'm going to focus Only on, upskilling myself into sustainability, decarbonization. So I did few course, online courses, but then also being very deliberate that I'm not going to accept any role coming my way or apply intentionally unless the role speak to me." > — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Intentional career breaks · [07:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=437) > "And I realized from last ten years, even though I was doing hands-on digital transformation roadmap, benchmarking, implementing, the part I enjoy most was looking into future trends and then bringing back them to life." > — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Foresight and futurism · [07:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=464) > "gave me confident that what I'm thinking is there is a niche demand for it and not to get desperate and just, seek the work, rather wait for the right opportunity where I can fulfill what I enjoy, but then also I learn something new." > — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Intentional career breaks · [08:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=511) > "Break taught me how to say no to the things which are not aligned, not to jump even if it looks like a very big opportunity, but if it's not a connecting dot." > — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Intentional career breaks · [09:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=554) > "One was Robin Sharma, Everyday Hero, and that book was kind of give me strength and be the pillar that whatever I'm doing, I can be a hero. I don't have to be executive leader to be a hero." > — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Intentional career breaks · [09:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=589) > "Because traditionally as a woman, especially as Indian woman breaking into mine, it was always like that, if you go off, you're gone, you vanished." > — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Women returning to work · [10:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=645) > "But in last five to six year, we see the different trend. Women are coming back, organization are welcoming, either it's BHP, Rio Tinto, even Google." > — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Women returning to work · [11:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=671) > "somebody said it very, very nicely in one of the earlier episodes around whose race are you running, who are you competing against." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Career pivots and reinvention · [12:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=726) > "So even in interview when they asked me, sure you want to do this because of your years of experience, and I said, we are intern in our, somewhere we are always intern, and I'd like to learn something new." > — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Career pivots and reinvention · [12:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=772) > "and that's what also understanding that when you take a break, that your new, new career might not be, have a same path or same recognition which you have, because now you start building yourself again as a brand. So you will start from the beginning." > — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Career pivots and reinvention · [13:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=799) > "And that was very, very clear for me as I didn't want to spend my time in that way, and then decided that I need to redesign a different type of lifestyle for me, which aligns more with my heart." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Career pivots and reinvention · [13:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=839) > "I'm a big proponent of if you're going to take a break, you must use it for deep inner reflection work, deep self work, and understand really how you do want to spend the rest of your time." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Intentional career breaks · [15:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=925) > "So I was very deliberate about, and especially I think post COVID help because companies become more flexible. So it was easy for me to plan my work around and keep my personal time, family time." > — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Self-care habits · [17:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1026) > "So understanding why, even though I came back to corporate, I didn't come back for the same purpose. I came back more about introducing that future thinking." > — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Career pivots and reinvention · [17:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1055) > "Making sure I exercise, whatever happen, so try to do all the seven days. I started, practicing yoga exercise, so joined the online classes. So because it's online, you have to show up, so being committed." > — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Self-care habits · [18:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1113) > "sometime it will go hours without thinking about water, food, now being deliberate, putting those alarms, kind of using technology. So I track, how much I walk, how much I drink water. So using technology to keep me on track of what I was not doing." > — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Self-care habits · [19:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1147) > "And I think the trick is then to keep that time in the calendar and then design your work around it, you know, so that you still can be a, a healthy, highly functional human being." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Self-care habits · [20:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1217) > "My family was very supportive because I'm working since I was like twelve, thirteen year old. I used to work for my dad for, he was in publication, so I used to run events and make money." > — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Intentional career breaks · [21:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1269) > "But my professional friends were bit shocked because for them it was like, how can you just take a break? You're just consulting this career started, you're getting a lot of recognition in that space." > — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Intentional career breaks · [21:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1287) > "My mother-in-law, interestingly, she's, she and my husband were saying to me that they, I shouldn't fall into that trap that I want to work, but now because I made a decision not to work for family, I shouldn't go back, because then I will set a wrong example for my son." > — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Women returning to work · [22:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1339) > "It's more about the whole organization was going into restructuring, and I thought, do I, and, and as you know, when restructuring happen in any big organization, there are a lot of several mini alternate roles appear," > — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Intentional career breaks · [23:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1382) > "So it's intentional mini break, but it's not that I'm taking a six month or three months break. It's more about seeking the right opportunity." > — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Intentional career breaks · [24:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1465) > "And I think it, it bravely came with the experience because I did it once. For me, it was easy. If it was my first time, I might not be as brave as you are." > — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Intentional career breaks · [25:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1502) > "Even if you see my whole life, my career pivoted every two to three years, because if I, I keep doing, if I enjoy and I'm learning, but then I pivot to the next." > — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Career pivots and reinvention · [26:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1562) > "your work is not your life, and it doesn't define you. It's, you, you should separate your own personal persona and your work persona, and it's not often easy when we start our career," > — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Career pivots and reinvention · [26:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1583) > "then I always advise that before you commit, make sure you financially plan for it. So at least you should have a six month or a one year buffer." > — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Financial planning for breaks · [27:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1679) > "Because even if you're starting a startup, you need to understand it's not going to start giving you paycheck from next, like three months." > — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Financial planning for breaks · [28:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1696) > "It needs, you need to come out of it a different person than would, that went into the sabbatical." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Intentional career breaks · [29:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1770) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) From overwork to self-care and career pivots. Episode 6 of a series of podcasts on taking conscious breaks from work. In this episode, Petro du Pisani speaks to Dr Gargi Mishra about taking career breaks or sabbaticals. Gargi shares her experience of taking an intentional break during the COVID-19 pandemic when she realized she was overworking and neglecting her health. During the break, she re-skilled herself and eventually pivoted to being a futurist. She discusses the importance of planning finances, being patient for the right opportunity, setting boundaries between work and personal life, and practicing self-care habits like exercise and mindfulness. When this episode was recorded, Gargi was on a mini-break seeking opportunities aligned with her interests in strategy, foresight, and academia. More about Petro du Pisani and On Change here · Connect with Petro · Solid Gold Podcasts · Solid Gold Podcasts ## #030 The Healing Pause | Ntseiseng Lephole - Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/030-the-healing-pause/ - Date: 2024-09-01 (as at 2024-09-01) - Guest: Ntseiseng Lephole - Host: Petro du Pisani - Themes: Career break for health, Stress and thyroid health, Reflection and self-care, Returning to work, Journaling and meditation routine, Preventive health checks - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1476380 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Ntseiseng Lephole - Joburg - Works with international NGOs. Took a career break in 2015 for health reasons after a hyperactive thyroid diagnosis, and studied a master's in development finance with UCT. In their own words: > "I work with international NGOs, and, the last NGO that I worked with, the project closed at the end of March." [01:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=63) > "2015, I had also planned to study the master's in development finance with UCT. Once I started with my master's, I then realized that I actually do need a break." [03:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=191) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) In the fourth episode of a series on conscious breaks from work, host Petro du Pisani talks to Ntseiseng Lephole, who works with international NGOs. Ntseiseng describes taking a voluntary package in 2015 after a hyperactive thyroid, surgery and a cancer scare, using the break to study a master's in development finance. She explains how returning to a high-pressure job made her ill again, how she recovered through exercise, healthy eating and a regular routine, and how she now keeps up journaling and meditation. She closes by urging listeners to have holistic health checks during their breaks. **Key ideas** - Ntseiseng says her doctors warned that she had to manage stress for her thyroid medication to work, which drove her decision to take the package and a break. ([01:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=85) [02:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=125) [04:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=272)) - She observed that her medication dosage stayed stable while she was off work, but had to be changed repeatedly once work stress returned. ([11:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=716) [24:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1478) [25:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1518)) - Ntseiseng argues that work is never finished, so people must deliberately rest, for example keeping one day a week as a rest day. ([20:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1242) [21:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1265) [21:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1280) [22:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1362)) - She found the break brought unplanned reflection, a return to things she used to enjoy, and fresh ideas when she went back to work. ([19:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1171) [20:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1213)) - The host argues that lessons from a sabbatical should be carried back into the workplace; Ntseiseng does this through journaling and meditation. ([31:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1862) [31:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1887) [32:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1951) [33:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=2015)) - Ntseiseng urges holistic health care and annual checkups, noting her thyroid was only found because a specialist ordered a full check. ([34:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=2053) [34:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=2060) [35:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=2143) [37:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=2230)) **Ntseiseng's daily journaling routine** ([31:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1887) [32:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1951) [33:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=2015) [33:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=2033)) 1. Keep separate journals, such as spiritual, work, daily and a colouring journal. 2. Journal in at least one of them once a day. 3. Stay conscious of what happens around you during the day. 4. In the evening, write each event into the matching journal. 5. When stuck at work, pause, look in the mirror and tell yourself you are still good enough. **Lessons** - Ntseiseng suggests trusting the inner sense that a decision is right, even for a risk-averse person. ([15:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=954) [16:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=979)) - Having a structured activity, such as studying, can keep a break from feeling like idle recovery, according to Ntseiseng. ([09:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=557)) - Her experience shows that returning to long hours can undo the health gains of a break. ([24:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1478) [24:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1493) [25:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1518)) - Ntseiseng recommends taking short pauses and rest days rather than going months without rest. ([21:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1280) [22:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1362)) - She advises fitting a full body check into a career break. ([37:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=2230)) **Who it's for:** People considering a career break for health or burnout, professionals returning to work after a sabbatical, and anyone managing a chronic condition alongside a demanding job who wants practical ideas on rest, journaling and health checks. **Facts stated in the episode** - Ntseiseng was diagnosed with a hyperactive thyroid from 2013 and it did not respond to medication through 2014. ([01:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=99)) - She studied a master's in development finance with UCT in 2015. ([03:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=191)) - After the break she left her first new job after six months because it was not busy enough. ([24:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1463)) - She lost more than 20 kg and began running 3.5 to 5 km a day from 2019. ([26:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1591) [27:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1623)) - She once had to produce about 190 pages in less than a week on a project. ([14:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=851)) - Ntseiseng plans for her next break to be the full Camino. ([30:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1839)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Why would someone take a career break for health reasons?** A: Ntseiseng took one after a hyperactive thyroid that would not respond to medication, surgery and a cancer scare, coinciding with a restructuring; her doctors said she had to manage her stress levels. ([01:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=85) [01:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=99) [02:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=125)) **Q: How do family and friends react when you take a break?** A: Ntseiseng says she got many questions about the risk, the loss of medical aid and provident fund, and whether she would find a job again; she replied that her health was more important. ([04:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=256) [04:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=272)) **Q: What should I do during a career break?** A: Ntseiseng studied, which kept her busy; she wishes she had read more and spent more time in nature, and she advises getting a full body health check. ([09:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=557) [18:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1095) [37:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=2230)) **Q: What happens when you go back to a stressful job after a break?** A: Ntseiseng's thyroid flared again when she worked late hours in Pretoria; her doctor said he could do nothing until she managed her stress. ([24:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1478) [24:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1493) [25:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1518)) **Q: How can I keep the benefits of a sabbatical after returning to work?** A: Ntseiseng keeps a routine of meditation and several journals, stays conscious of events during the day and pauses when stuck at work. ([31:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1887) [32:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1951) [33:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=2015) [33:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=2033)) **Q: Is it okay to rest before finishing a work project?** A: Ntseiseng says work is never finished, so take a breather, reflect and return after resting, and keep a weekly rest day. ([21:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1265) [21:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1280) [22:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1362)) **Q: Why are annual health checks important?** A: Ntseiseng's thyroid condition was discovered only because a neurologist ordered a full check by several specialists; she says she might otherwise have died. ([34:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=2053) [34:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=2060) [35:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=2143)) ### Passage: Thyroid illness, restructuring and the decision to leave [01:25–03:46, 316 words] Note (AI): Ntseiseng's full account of why she took a voluntary package: illness, a cancer scare, doctor's warnings about stress and a planned master's. Ntseiseng Lephole, guest [01:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=85): > have taken a break before. That was way back in 2014, December 2014, so my break was in 2015. Why did you take that break? it was health reasons. So from 2013, I was diagnosed with a very hyperactive, thyroid. Between 2013 and 2014, it wouldn't respond to medication. I went through a lot in terms of, being hospitalized regularly, and then there was a, a scare of cancer as well on the thyroid, and around that time, there was also a brutal, restructuring, as you said earlier, at our organization, and, everyone literally had to apply for their jobs. And going into the operation, my doctors had already warned me that, after the operation, I need to manage my stress levels so that they can get me into the right dosage for my medication. so it was that, and also looking at the restructuring, I had about Five or six jobs that I could have applied for, but I imagined, going for one interview and being told you're not successful, and then another, and another, and another. So the, after the operation was in October, and the, the restructuring happened around that same time. So after the operation, then I decided to take the package, voluntary package, and, just take a break. Initially, I had thought that maybe after three months, I will start looking for a job, but 2015, I had also planned to study the master's in development finance with UCT. Once I started with my master's, I then realized that I actually do need a break. so I was on break for almost a year, ten, eleven months, while I was studying, and, I started looking for a job on the, I think the ninth month or so, and then I was lucky to get the first one that I went for an interview for. But yeah, that was the reason why. ### Passage: Facing a cancer scare and turning down an interview [05:45–08:10, 348 words] Note (AI): Shows how a health crisis reset her priorities and how she withdrew from a job opportunity to protect her break. Ntseiseng Lephole, guest [05:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=345): > I think at first I had to deal with my operation and going into a major operation, not knowing whether I have cancer or not, that, took over. And for that period, I didn't think of anything else except is there going to be cancer or not. And, in 2013, I had lost my aunt to cancer. so it was still like the, the, the scale of cancer, the reality of cancer was still like very new, for me. And, I'd also lost my cousin, who was, in fact, my cousin I lost in 2014 in December, she had leukemia and had her treatment at the Donald Gordon, Hospital as well. So with her, I had a, a very rough experience of cancer cause I was at the hospital every single day. I saw what she went through. In November, my concern was just my health. And, years we went through meetings with my, my boss and the other leadership team, and, I remember the first meeting after I came back from my operation, they had already started with the initial meetings with all the other staff, and when I came back, then they had a meeting with me, and, from that meeting, I made it very clear to them that I'm gonna take the package for health reasons. I explained to them what my doctor said, and they did accept that. So when the results eventually came back and there was no cancer, reality hit, then on the other side, that your living work was gonna happen. I remember I actually had applied for one position, and I was called for an interview, and I went for that interview, and I was like, if I get this job, maybe I should just get, take it or not. But something just kept telling me that you need the break. So after the interview, even before they came back with the results, I actually wrote an email to them and I told them, you know, I am taking a break, so please, rule me out for, for this position. ### Passage: Why rest matters even when work is unfinished [20:42–22:59, 328 words] Note (AI): Her core argument for regular rest, including the weekly rest-day idea she took from a priest. Ntseiseng Lephole, guest [20:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1242): > Like I say, it wasn't something that I really planned, but then as I look back, I realized that I did a lot of reflection. I came out of it saying, I need to take care of myself more. Work is work. You can do whatever you can do, what you're able to do. But I also came to the realization that you can never, ever at work say you have finished. Something. There is always, always something. It's important that you get time to rest. Even if you haven't finished a project at work, just take a breather, do an introspection, reflect, and get back to it, after you, you have rested. There is just no point in waking yourself to your death, and at the end of it, then you're feeling so fatigued, so tired, and you don't even have the time to do the things that you, you want to do that will make you come back refreshed, you are putting them aside. So having time for self, it's very important. In fact, last week, I was watching something on Instagram, and, the priest was saying, We put so much time on earthly things and wanting to do things and doing them right all the time, we never give ourselves time to rest. And, by the time we get time to rest, it's too late. Our bodies have taken the toll, and you may recover, but your body will never fully recover. And he said, you know, God, when he created earth, he worked for six days, and he rested for one day. Can we just practice that? If God could do that, why can we not do that? So tell yourself on Sundays, it's your rest day. You can work, even on Saturdays, yes, you do your personal stuff and everything, but Have time to rest. Do not go for a month, two months without resting, and then you're complaining how tired you are. ### Passage: Relapse under workload, then recovery through balance [24:38–27:21, 369 words] Note (AI): A turning point: long hours made her ill again; a normal-hours job, exercise and healthy eating restored her health. Ntseiseng Lephole, guest [24:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1478): > And I moved to another organization. Oh my God, didn't I get busy? And, that's where then my thyroid started acting up again because it was in Pretoria. I live in Joburg. It was so busy that at times I would leave work at 10 PM, driving back to Joburg. What do you do when you get home at 11 PM? All you need to do is shower, get into bed, and go to work the following day. And that's where I understood what my doctors meant when they said I need to manage my stress levels because I started getting sick. And my doctor kept saying to me, there is absolutely nothing I can do for you until you start managing your stress levels. I can give you all the medication I can, but if you don't manage your stress levels, There's nothing that I can do for you. And the moment that I managed that stress, I got another job and moved back to Joburg. I was weighing over a hundred Ks. My feet were swollen all the time. My iron deficiency was bad. magnesium, calcium, every, every time I did bloods, everything was just low. And my thyroid was either hyper or hypo. When I moved back to Joburg, the job I got was, normal hours, hardly ever working overtime. And, I started finding time to go to the gym. I started going back to walking and hiking here and there. And by the end of, that was in 2019, by the end of that year, I had lost so much weight. overall, I lost more than 20 Ks from what I was weighing, and then I started to see my health improving again, and, I was also eating healthy. I've never been a diet person going on diets. I was just eating healthy, and everyone complimented me. I started glowing. My skin went back to the smooth skin that it used to be, and I've never turned back. I started running in 2019 for the first time ever in my life. I don't do marathons, but I run like 3.5 to 5 Ks every day, and I've gone back to hiking. it's It's just amazing. ### Passage: Keeping the sabbatical mindset through journaling [31:27–34:05, 393 words] Note (AI): Describes her practical daily routine of multiple journals, mindfulness during the day and pausing when stuck at work. Ntseiseng Lephole, guest [31:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1887): > You know, I have created a routine on things like meditation, journaling, things that after our executive MBA program, I'm sure all of us, we thought this is how we're going to do our lives. But, along the way, they fall off. you get home in the evening, you're tired, and you're like, no, I can skip a day without journaling. And then it becomes two days before you know it, you have stopped. And I went through that. And, when I went to, so I did my Camino in Spain. When I went to Spain, I told myself, I'm going to spend that whole week journaling my everyday experience of my work every day. And, I created a theme for each day. And I did that, and I did meditation, and I came back, and I consciously told myself, I'm not gonna stop. I actually ended up buying so many journals. Yeah, I have a journal for my spiritual life, I have a journal for work, I have a journal for my normal day, and then I have a, a, a journal that has, mostly where you can color in and all of that. So either way, between the four or the five journals that I have, I have to at least once a day journal on any of them something that happens. And I realized that it becomes easier if you become conscious throughout the day on things that happen around you. Then in the evening, you're looking forward. To actually then say, I remember this happened, I'm going to write about it. Oh, it's spiritual because I felt God was talking to me. Then I go to my spiritual journal and I, I write about that. Oh, I met this very nice stranger and this person said this to me, you know, and then you go to your gratitude journal or whatever. So I have found that it's best or it's better to not just go through the day and just be swallowed up in the things that are happening, but become conscious of things that are happening. Taking a pause at times, and, if you are stuck at work, with a report that you are doing, just take a pause, go to the bathroom, look at yourself in the mirror, and just say to yourself, I'm still good enough. ### Passage: How a referral uncovered her thyroid condition [34:13–37:22, 452 words] Note (AI): Her story of how a specialist's full check found the thyroid condition, and her advice to use breaks for health checks. Ntseiseng Lephole, guest [34:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=2053): > You know, seeing that I took my break for health reasons, I would say it's very important for people that as you are taking care of all your other aspects of life, take care of your health aspect of life, as well. It's very important. Those annual checkups are important. I didn't know that I had a thyroid until my aunt that I said had a cancer passed on. She passed on in April 2013, and then around June, I went to my GP, and I said to my GP, I've told you about the history of cancer in my family. I've just lost my aunt to cancer, and, at that time, I was suffering from lots of migraines for years. I had even gone to the head clinic and I didn't get help. My gynae had suggested, that I put them in renal loop, and, I'm one person, I don't want anything foreign in my body, and I refused, but my migraines were hormonal. They will come at the end of my periods. And when my aunt passed on, her cancer was called R&B for short, I can't pronounce the full name, but it was, on the nerves next to the brain. And that's when I went to my GP and asked my GP to refer me to a specialist, and, he didn't hesitate. He referred me to a neurologist who then did the EEG, sent me for, MRI, and, they actually picked that I have lesions on my brain, that is my other risk cancer that I'm living with. And then This lady decided that she's gonna admit me in hospital to investigate those lesions further, but then she's also going to invite a whole lot of specialists so that they can have a full check on my body. And that's how my thyroid was discovered. had she not done that, had she ac- admitted me in hospital and just, invited a neurosurgeon, I wouldn't, probably I would be dead. The thyroid would have killed me. So it's very important to Manage your life holistically. Right now, even though, as I say, I'm at risk of cancer and cancers, I know which cancers I'm at risk of, and my doctors are on alert on those. They know the things that they need to check. I didn't know that, acid reflux, if it goes untreated, it can cause stomach cancer until I was under the hands of my doctors. So yeah, I would say it's important to take care of self and self holistically. So when you take those breaks, fit in a full body check during those breaks, that you are to make sure that health-wise you are still okay. ### Quotes > "It's like you have a guardian whispering in your ear all the time that, remember, you need to do this." > — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · [08:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=504) > "I would wake up Monday morning, and I would already be looking forward to Saturday," > — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · [10:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=657) > "It's amazing how it's almost like your body has to tell you that you need a break, and then you listen to it." > — Petro du Pisani, host · [13:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=793) > "There is just no point in waking yourself to your death," > — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · [21:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1294) > "he worked for six days, and he rested for one day. Can we just practice that? If God could do that, why can we not do that?" > — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · [22:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1353) > "It's like you're not going to be on your deathbed and wish you'd done more meetings or more Teams calls." > — Petro du Pisani, host · [23:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1380) > "I can give you all the medication I can, but if you don't manage your stress levels, There's nothing that I can do for you." > — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · [25:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1526) > "And I was like, so I can finish a cup of coffee without sugar." > — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · [28:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1717) > "So my next break, it's going to be doing the full Camino." > — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · [30:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1839) > "look at yourself in the mirror, and just say to yourself, I'm still good enough." > — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · [34:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=2041) ### Claims > "I work with international NGOs, and, the last NGO that I worked with, the project closed at the end of March." > — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Returning to work · [01:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=63) > "So from 2013, I was diagnosed with a very hyperactive, thyroid. Between 2013 and 2014, it wouldn't respond to medication." > — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Stress and thyroid health · [01:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=99) > "there was also a brutal, restructuring, as you said earlier, at our organization, and, everyone literally had to apply for their jobs. And going into the operation, my doctors had already warned me that, after the operation, I need to manage my stress levels so that they can get me into the right dosage for my medication." > — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Career break for health · [02:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=125) > "2015, I had also planned to study the master's in development finance with UCT. Once I started with my master's, I then realized that I actually do need a break." > — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Career break for health · [03:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=191) > "I got a lot of questions about, are you sure you want to do this? What are you going to do? It's risky, you know, are you sure you don't want to have a job? There won't be medical aid, there won't be provident fund, what are you going to do?" > — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Career break for health · [04:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=256) > "my answer to them was, you know, I believe my health, it's more important, and, I'm just gonna take the advice from my doctors, and I'm going to study," > — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Career break for health · [04:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=272) > "When, when the restructuring started, I, I knew because I'd already decided ten years ago I was going to do this. so I had a bit of time to prepare and, and people were also very, very shocked when I left." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Career break for health · [05:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=320) > "So after the interview, even before they came back with the results, I actually wrote an email to them and I told them, you know, I am taking a break, so please, rule me out for, for this position." > — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Career break for health · [07:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=475) > "the studies helped a lot because then I was busy with something. I felt that way something keeping me busy, rather than now saying I'm recovering, what do I now do with my life while I'm recovering?" > — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Career break for health · [09:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=557) > "It was so bad that at one point I begged my doctor to remove it. The thing had totally taken over my life, the fatigue, the headaches, I was just not in control of my body." > — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Stress and thyroid health · [10:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=628) > "I saw from the beginning the benefit of just letting go and, managing the stress, because from the first dosage that my doctors put me on, it just stayed like that. they didn't have to change it after that." > — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Stress and thyroid health · [11:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=716) > "there was a project that I was working on, and I had very tight, tight deadlines that, I had to do over nine, one hundred and ninety pages in less than a week. And I didn't sleep, and my body took that in." > — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Stress and thyroid health · [14:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=851) > "You know, I am a risk-averse person, and, I was very proud of myself that I made that decision, and I took the risk of not having a regular income coming in every month." > — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Career break for health · [15:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=954) > "I actually learned that sometimes it's important to make decisions that are right for you. And, when those decisions are right for you, you will know, because there's a nagging thing within you that keeps telling you that you're making the right decision." > — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Reflection and self-care · [16:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=979) > "I wish I could have read more, and explored nature more. I love nature. I love being around nature, but I, I wish I could have taken more walks." > — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Reflection and self-care · [18:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1095) > "I went back to my youth years and the years that I started working and thought a lot about the things that I used to enjoy doing. After that, I actually just wanted to go back into those things, like hiking." > — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Reflection and self-care · [19:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1171) > "Going back into work as well, I realized how fresh I was, and how then I would come up with all these fresh ideas." > — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Returning to work · [20:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1213) > "But I also came to the realization that you can never, ever at work say you have finished. Something. There is always, always something. It's important that you get time to rest." > — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Reflection and self-care · [21:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1265) > "Even if you haven't finished a project at work, just take a breather, do an introspection, reflect, and get back to it, after you, you have rested." > — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Reflection and self-care · [21:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1280) > "So tell yourself on Sundays, it's your rest day. You can work, even on Saturdays, yes, you do your personal stuff and everything, but Have time to rest. Do not go for a month, two months without resting, and then you're complaining how tired you are." > — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Reflection and self-care · [22:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1362) > "besides feeling that I was, being disskilled, I also felt I have too much time on my hands. And I actually stayed in that organization for six months. I left because I didn't feel busy enough." > — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Returning to work · [24:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1463) > "It was so busy that at times I would leave work at 10 PM, driving back to Joburg. What do you do when you get home at 11 PM?" > — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Returning to work · [24:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1493) > "And my doctor kept saying to me, there is absolutely nothing I can do for you until you start managing your stress levels." > — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Stress and thyroid health · [25:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1518) > "overall, I lost more than 20 Ks from what I was weighing, and then I started to see my health improving again, and, I was also eating healthy." > — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Stress and thyroid health · [26:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1591) > "I started running in 2019 for the first time ever in my life. I don't do marathons, but I run like 3.5 to 5 Ks every day, and I've gone back to hiking." > — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Reflection and self-care · [27:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1623) > "So sometimes it's just things that will happen by mistake, but they are the right decisions you're making for your health." > — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Stress and thyroid health · [28:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1727) > "One, I realized when I got, started doing the walk that I had not mourned my mother, and that week that I spent working, that was the week that I mourned my mother." > — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Reflection and self-care · [30:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1820) > "I think it's important that you bring those lessons into, if you re-enter the workplace again afterwards, to bring those lessons with you." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Returning to work · [31:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1862) > "Yeah, I have a journal for my spiritual life, I have a journal for work, I have a journal for my normal day, and then I have a, a, a journal that has, mostly where you can color in and all of that." > — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Journaling and meditation routine · [32:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1951) > "I have found that it's best or it's better to not just go through the day and just be swallowed up in the things that are happening, but become conscious of things that are happening." > — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Journaling and meditation routine · [33:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=2015) > "if you are stuck at work, with a report that you are doing, just take a pause, go to the bathroom, look at yourself in the mirror, and just say to yourself, I'm still good enough." > — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Journaling and meditation routine · [33:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=2033) > "it's very important for people that as you are taking care of all your other aspects of life, take care of your health aspect of life, as well. It's very important. Those annual checkups are important." > — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Preventive health checks · [34:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=2060) > "He referred me to a neurologist who then did the EEG, sent me for, MRI, and, they actually picked that I have lesions on my brain, that is my other risk cancer that I'm living with." > — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Preventive health checks · [35:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=2143) > "So when you take those breaks, fit in a full body check during those breaks, that you are to make sure that health-wise you are still okay." > — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Preventive health checks · [37:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=2230) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Health First: The Power of taking a Career Break for Self-Care. Episode 4 of a series of podcasts on taking conscious breaks from work. In this episode, Petro du Pisani speaks to Ntseiseng Lephole about her experience of taking a career break to focus on health issues and to further her studies. Ntseiseng highlights the importance of self-care, reflection, and finding a work-life balance. She emphasizes the need to listen to one's body and prioritize health over work demands. After her break, Ntseiseng returned to the workforce but faced challenges in managing stress levels again. She eventually found a better balance by incorporating healthy habits like exercise, journaling, and meditation into her routine. The conversation underscores the value of taking breaks for personal growth, rejuvenation, and reassessing priorities. More about Petro du Pisani and On Change here · Connect with Petro · Solid Gold Podcasts · Solid Gold Podcasts ## #027 Purposeful Pauses | Fatima Collins - Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/027-purposeful-pauses/ - Date: 2024-08-02 (as at 2024-08-02) - Guest: Fatima Collins - Host: Petro du Pisani - Themes: Taking conscious career breaks, Introspection and self-discovery, Finding meaningful work, Identity separate from job, Re-entering the workforce, Keeping a sabbatical mindset, Grief and recovery - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1467204 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Fatima Collins - Women in Mining Project Manager · Sibanye-Stillwater - Began as a microbiologist, worked in corporate banking in Bombay, did her MBA at UCT, then worked in the development sector; Hatha yoga practitioner who took four career breaks for travel, self-discovery, studying and grieving. In their own words: > "so I'm Fatima Collins. I currently work as the regional head for women in mining at a mining company. This is my fourth career change," [00:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=58) > "I, I, I went back to university, studied part-time, moved to Bombay, worked in corporate banking for a while there. Still wasn't what I thought it would give me. Then I took the sabbatical and I studied full-time for one year. I did my MBA at UCT and things shifted for me." [10:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=645) > "I think that sabbatical was one of the greatest gifts I gave myself because post that, I went into the development sector and I've done various things in development, so, socioeconomic development, local economic development, and I found work incredibly meaningful." [11:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=661) > "So I'm also, together with a, with my career, I'm also a yoga practitioner. I, I studied, Hatha yoga, and I teach from time to time. But I started the meditation, introspective journey about twenty odd years ago," [12:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=737) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) The first episode of an On Change series in which host Petro du Pisani, herself on a conscious break, talks with Fatima Collins about her four career breaks. Fatima's breaks were for travel, working out what meaningful work meant to her, full-time MBA study and grieving after COVID-19. She discusses introspection, separating identity from job, her relationship with money, and re-entering the workforce. She also describes how she designs her working day around a few meaningful touch points. **Key ideas** - Fatima says each of her four breaks had a different reason: travel, finding meaningful work, full-time study and grief. ([01:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=95) [04:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=249) [04:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=266) [04:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=281)) - Fatima argues you must understand whose race you are running rather than comparing yourself with peers. ([01:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=93) [03:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=239) [04:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=241)) - Fatima insists she is not her job and defines herself separately from her work. ([06:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=387) [06:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=392) [25:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1512)) - Fatima credits one year of full-time MBA study with giving her job satisfaction for the rest of her career. ([09:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=596) [10:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=645) [11:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=661) [11:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=679)) - Fatima describes introspection as non-linear and lonely, and says working with a trusted person helps you stay on course. ([12:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=737) [13:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=791) [14:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=868)) - Petro argues that the rat race is hard to see from inside and that people sometimes need to retreat and recover, drawing on Wintering. ([17:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1032) [26:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1587)) - Fatima keeps a sabbatical mindset by building daily touch points with prayer, meditation, people and exercise. ([20:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1207) [20:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1250) [21:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1293) [21:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1308)) **Designing the day around meaningful touch points** ([20:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1207) [20:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1250) [21:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1293) [21:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1308)) 1. Through sabbaticals, identify four or five things that are meaningful for your existence. 2. Ensure each day has touch points with those things, such as prayer, meditation, people and exercise. 3. Notice derailment: two or more days of only work means it is time to reevaluate. 4. Pull it back, for example by excusing yourself from meetings or moving a deadline. **Lessons** - Fatima found that re-entry after a study break is easier because you can explain yourself better. Unexplained short breaks were harder to explain to others. ([18:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1102) [18:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1116) [18:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1129)) - Fatima says the real learning on her first break came in unplanned moments rather than from the plan itself. ([15:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=958) [16:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=982)) - Fatima learned that grief may have no end date, and that returning to work helped her balance keeping busy with healing. ([19:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1176)) - Both speakers value working with a coach or guide who sees what you cannot see. ([13:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=791) [13:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=826)) - Fatima says she did not plan for the internal turmoil that deep introspection brings. ([05:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=353)) **Who it's for:** Mid-career professionals considering a sabbatical or career break, people returning to work after study or grief, and anyone trying to separate their identity from their job while still working in a corporate setting. **Facts stated in the episode** - Fatima's first break was around 1998 to 2000, using South Africa and the UK's two-year working visa option. ([01:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=95)) - Fatima took a sabbatical in 2008 to study full-time and did her MBA at UCT. ([04:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=249) [10:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=645)) - Fatima says her current role is her fourth career change. ([00:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=58)) - Fatima started her meditation and introspective journey about twenty years ago and studied Hatha yoga. ([12:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=737)) - Petro went through a corporate restructure in 2014 and decided it would be her last. ([00:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=2)) - Petro plans a one-year break from employer-type work. ([25:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1534)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Why would someone take several career breaks?** A: Fatima Collins took four: travelling on a UK working visa early in her career, a six-month break to understand meaningful work, a 2008 break to study full-time, and a break to grieve after losing people during COVID-19. ([01:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=95) [04:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=249) [04:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=266) [04:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=281)) **Q: Will taking time off early in my career hurt it?** A: People warned Fatima that her career would suffer, but twenty-five years later she calls it the best decision. She says the key is to understand whose race you're running and stay in your lane. ([01:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=93) [02:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=143) [03:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=239)) **Q: Is it harder to go back to work after a sabbatical?** A: Fatima says returning after study was easy because she could explain it as a career shift. A short break was harder because nobody understands a break. After grieving she was nervous, but work helped her heal. ([18:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1102) [18:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1116) [18:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1129) [19:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1176)) **Q: How can I keep the benefits of a sabbatical once I'm back at work?** A: Fatima identifies four or five meaningful things and touches them daily, such as prayer, meditation, people and exercise. When work crowds them out for two or more days, she reevaluates and pulls back. ([20:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1250) [21:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1293) [21:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1308)) **Q: Should I work with a coach while taking a break?** A: Fatima has worked with one person for twenty years. She says introspection is not linear and a sabbatical is lonely, so a trusted person helps you stay on course. Petro says coaches see things you can't see. ([13:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=791) [13:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=826) [14:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=868)) **Q: What surprised people most about taking a sabbatical?** A: Fatima says she did not plan for the internal turmoil of deep introspection. She also had to rethink her relationship with money, which she came to see as an energy rather than something that only comes from a job. ([05:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=353) [06:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=365)) **Q: Can a career break lead to more meaningful work?** A: Fatima says her MBA year at UCT led her into development work that she found incredibly meaningful. She says that one year gave her job satisfaction for the rest of her working career. ([10:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=645) [11:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=661) [11:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=679)) ### Passage: The first sabbatical: travelling instead of building a career [01:33–03:59, 452 words] Note (AI): Fatima describes deciding to travel in her early twenties despite job and study offers, and the pressure of comparing herself with her peers. Fatima Collins, guest [01:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=93): > so I took breaks for various reasons, and I remember the first break I took was sort of '98, '99, just at the very, very beginning of my career. I just started off as a microbiologist. I was working in a laboratory in, in Johannesburg, and, and then I decided I wanted to travel, and South Africa, and UK had that two-year working visa option. So I worked and traveled, but I took a conscious break from building my career. It was at a stage where you sort of in your early twenties, all your friends are getting their dream jobs or doing their articles or getting into their careers, studying further. I, I felt it was a very brave thing to do, you know, to say, I'm going to take these two years and I'm going to do whatever work I get. and, and travel, the intent is not to further my career. So it was a break from actually growing my career. And it was nerve wracking because, universities were offering me positions for my masters and my honors degrees and companies were approaching me for long-term work. And, and people said, you know, you can take holidays, you can work and take holidays, but you don't need to take time off and go traveling. it, your, your career will suffer. I think it was the best decision, Pietro. As, as much as, we're always pushing for time and, and rushing. Twenty-five years later, I can say it all works out, the way it does. And it's also your intent. Did I want to be a tourist in those countries, or did I want to be a traveler? And for me, it was about introspection, understanding this big world I'm entering into now, post-university, post working for a year or two. I'm going to be part of this world. Do I understand it? Do I just become another cog in the wheel? So that, that was my first sabbatical, ninety-eight to two thousand. And, I did work because I, I needed to fund these travels. So from time to time, I did work, in, in, in my professional capacity. However, I took a break from the rat race. I took a break from building a career. But, and even then, I, I needed to remind myself that it's my own race, you know, and I think you may know what that feels like because you look at your colleagues and they, you think, oh my God, they, they're doing so much better. I'm two years behind them, or my friends are, you know, they've got so much money now because they've saved up all this money and I've just traveled. ### Passage: From apartheid-era career limits to meaningful work [09:56–11:34, 279 words] Note (AI): Traces her career path from microbiology through banking to an MBA sabbatical that she says led her into meaningful development work. Fatima Collins, guest [09:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=596): > I, I grew up in, south of Johannesburg, a place called Donatia, in the heart of apartheid. So as you know how, how apartheid South Africa was designed, all we knew was the communities in which we lived. So everybody in the Indian community became a lawyer, a doctor, a teacher, an accountant, or an engineer, and, or an entrepreneur. Except, except for that, we weren't really exposed to different careers. So when I finished school, I did a BSc degree, and I, I was, I was enjoying the sciences. It enabled me to work in South Africa, work abroad in laboratories, enabled my travel. Came back to South Africa and was still in, in that, filtration microbiology, biochemistry field, but it wasn't fulfilling. And, I, I, I didn't know what it is that I wanted to do. I, I, I went back to university, studied part-time, moved to Bombay, worked in corporate banking for a while there. Still wasn't what I thought it would give me. Then I took the sabbatical and I studied full-time for one year. I did my MBA at UCT and things shifted for me. I think that sabbatical was one of the greatest gifts I gave myself because post that, I went into the development sector and I've done various things in development, so, socioeconomic development, local economic development, and I found work incredibly meaningful. It was like I came back to myself and I had a, a good twenty years ahead of me in terms of work, of my work life, twenty, thirty years ahead of me. So that one year gave me job satisfaction for the rest of my working career. ### Passage: What introspection looks like: yoga and a long-term guide [12:17–13:42, 237 words] Note (AI): Explains her twenty-year practice of working with one person on self-understanding, and why she says introspection is not linear. Fatima Collins, guest [12:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=737): > So I'm also, together with a, with my career, I'm also a yoga practitioner. I, I studied, Hatha yoga, and I teach from time to time. But I started the meditation, introspective journey about twenty odd years ago, and I find that for me, Working with somebody really closely on this journey has been very helpful. I worked with someone for the last twenty years, understanding myself, understanding my patterns, understanding my triggers, where am I now, where would I like to get to, what does contentment look like for me, what does, manifestation look like for me, how do I With the universe, co-create the life I'm looking to lead, instead of just stumbling upon it day after day. For me, I find it important working with someone on this journey, because, you know, often when we have these discussions, she'll come back and say, but remember how far you've come, because, because introspection and, and, and this journey to self-actualization is not linear. You know, it sort of goes up and down, and, and sometimes you feel like you're getting nowhere, but working with somebody helps you stay your course and helps you realign for those days that you, you falter. So for me, introspection looks like finding a path to a more peaceful life and, and creating, creating a life I want as, as, as opposed to living a life that I don't like. ### Passage: Returning to work after four different breaks [18:22–20:06, 307 words] Note (AI): Compares how easy or hard re-entry was after study, a short break and grief, and how people received her. Fatima Collins, guest [18:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1102): > So I think, post MBA, it was easier because, I now understood what I'd like to do in terms of work, finding meaningful work. So the, the issue about doing what I love was exciting. Coming back to the workforce after taking a sabbatical from, from, for studying is always easy because you're almost able to explain yourself better. That was much easy. It was a career shift. It was a, it was an explanation. Post that, I had a short break, and, That was a bit harder. You know, it's almost like we're still stuck in that world where people just work, work, work, work, work, and nobody understands a break. But I, I, I think that when, you know, when you spend enough time introspecting and co-creating the life you want, you attract the circumstances that sort of, of fit into what you expect of life. So although it was a little harder, it was still easy enough to join. And because I'd had a break, I came back with a clear mind. I, I had the energy to take this on. So it was very, very exciting. What I found with my last sabbatical, I joined the workforce and I, I feel like I, I was so nervous. I wasn't sure, was I done with my grieving? I, I didn't understand that grieving might be a lifetime experience, you know. I was looking for some end date to it. But joining the workforce helped me find that balance between Keeping busy and appreciating what's just happened, through COVID. That was probably a little harder, you know, just, because there was a lot of talking about it. Oh, what were you doing? Why were you on a break? what happened? And so it was talking about it, but in that there was healing as well. ### Passage: Designing each day around meaningful touch points [20:07–22:01, 358 words] Note (AI): Gives her concrete daily practice for keeping sabbatical lessons alive inside a corporate job. Petro du Pisani, host [20:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1207): > I read somewhere about somebody who took a sabbatical and they tried to, when they got back into work, tried to keep that sabbatical mindset still with them. Because for me, being in the sabbatical, I find, I'm finding that I'm getting curious about things again. My creativity is starting to come alive again, you know, I'm not a, I'm not this corporate person, or animal anymore. I'm a, a different type of person now, which is exactly what I wanted to get out of this sabbatical. And I was wondering, how do you keep that sabbatical mindset, the lessons that you've learned from the sabbatical still with you and keep going back to them? Is there a way that you try and keep that mindset? Fatima Collins, guest [20:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1247): > So, I try and design my day on, through, through all these various sabbaticals, I identified four or five things that are meaningful for my existence. So in a day, I try and ensure that I have some touch points with those things. Of course, there's days where, as you know, you just, corporate just runs away with you. If I have two or more of those kind of days, I then have to sit and reevaluate my life. So I, I try and make sure that in each day I touch bases with, so for example, my, my morning starts with my morning prayer and a morning meditation. And then I'm Muslim, we pray five times a day. So I, those are my touch points. I need to have some interaction with certain people, and so I make sure I have those, and then there's exercise. So, it's a blend of social, community, family, prayer, and exercise. I, I, I know I'm derailing when I have days where there's only work and, and none of that or very little of that, and then I pull it back. You know, I excuse myself from meetings if it's prayer time. I say I'll be a bit late on a deadline because I have another engagement. So I just pull it back and nobody, nobody's, ever suffered as a result of that, you know. ### Quotes > "Did I want to be a tourist in those countries, or did I want to be a traveler?" > — Fatima Collins, guest · [03:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=180) > "understand whose race you're running, stay in your lane, and be clear about what expectations you want from this period." > — Fatima Collins, guest · [04:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=241) > "money is in fact an energy, and, and you attract it or you repel it," > — Fatima Collins, guest · [06:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=377) > "I needed to be very clear that I am not my job, I am not a job." > — Fatima Collins, guest · [06:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=392) > "being versus doing, collecting memories versus collecting things." > — Fatima Collins, guest · [07:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=430) > "I'm sort of seeing my break as a gap year for grown-ups," > — Petro du Pisani, host · [07:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=443) > "So that one year gave me job satisfaction for the rest of my working career." > — Fatima Collins, guest · [11:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=689) > "Fortune favors the brave, as they say. So you just need to just do it, and everything will fall in place." > — Fatima Collins, guest · [11:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=705) > "And so now, you know, every bit of work I do is meaningful. It doesn't even feel like work anymore." > — Fatima Collins, guest · [11:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=714) > "The journey of introspection in itself is lonely. The journey of a sabbatical in itself is lonely." > — Fatima Collins, guest · [14:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=868) > "Why is it always about the doing? It's just about the being," > — Petro du Pisani, host · [22:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1369) ### Claims > "When I went through a particularly brutal corporate restructure in 2014, I decided that would be my last restructure. I didn't quite know how I was going to leave, but over the next ten years, that intent became a reality, and I am now on a conscious break from work." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Taking conscious career breaks · [00:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=2) > "so I'm Fatima Collins. I currently work as the regional head for women in mining at a mining company. This is my fourth career change," > — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Finding meaningful work · [00:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=58) > "and I remember the first break I took was sort of '98, '99, just at the very, very beginning of my career. I just started off as a microbiologist. I was working in a laboratory in, in Johannesburg, and, and then I decided I wanted to travel, and South Africa, and UK had that two-year working visa option." > — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Taking conscious career breaks · [01:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=95) > "And it was nerve wracking because, universities were offering me positions for my masters and my honors degrees and companies were approaching me for long-term work. And, and people said, you know, you can take holidays, you can work and take holidays, but you don't need to take time off and go traveling. it, your, your career will suffer." > — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Taking conscious career breaks · [02:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=143) > "But I think what was key for me is to understand whose race you're running, stay in your lane, and be clear about what expectations you want from this period." > — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Taking conscious career breaks · [03:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=239) > "post that, I, I came back into the world of work, I had some clarity, and then I took another sabbatical in 2008, and that was to study full-time. And I would not have gotten there if I didn't understand who I am, what I want, where I'd like to position my life." > — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Introspection and self-discovery · [04:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=249) > "And then later in life, I, I took another about a six-month sabbatical trying to understand what sort of work I'd like to do. I found that the broader area, but I just needed to spend time understanding what does meaningful work mean to me." > — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Finding meaningful work · [04:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=266) > "And the last time I took a sabbatical was for unfortunate reasons, COVID-19 pandemic, I lost many people close to me. And so I just needed a time to grieve. I, I wasn't sure that I could offer the world of work anything when I was so broken." > — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Grief and recovery · [04:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=281) > "I, I suppose I didn't plan for the internal turmoil from time to time. You know, because I was so deeply introspective, introspection's not easy, and I probably didn't think about that." > — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Introspection and self-discovery · [05:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=353) > "I also, over the time, learned to reevaluate and redevelop a relationship with money, because in my initial years, I believed money came from a job, whereas money is in fact an energy, and, and you attract it or you repel it," > — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Introspection and self-discovery · [06:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=365) > "A lot of people associate their purpose and their identity with what they do, and I needed to be very clear that I am not my job, I am not a job. So understanding that dynamic for myself and defining myself separate from the work that I do." > — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Identity separate from job · [06:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=387) > "I think it's quite different taking a gap year or a time off when you're younger, although I think you totally should do it, when you're younger, because then you've got the energy to climb up the mountains and do everything you want to do, versus taking a, a break when you're a bit older." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Taking conscious career breaks · [07:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=447) > "I often use the Maslow's hierarchy of needs to describe where I am in life now, because, you know, at the bottom of the pyramid is your basic needs, your food, your shelter, your protection, et cetera, et cetera. And as you come to the peak of that pyramid, it's self-actualization." > — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Introspection and self-discovery · [08:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=497) > "I couldn't take a break when I was in my early career. There was just no way to do it. so directly from school to university to work, and then you've got all these expectations from others, you know, on how you should be succeeding and what you should be doing and how you're climbing the corporate ladder and all of that." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Taking conscious career breaks · [08:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=535) > "So everybody in the Indian community became a lawyer, a doctor, a teacher, an accountant, or an engineer, and, or an entrepreneur. Except, except for that, we weren't really exposed to different careers." > — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Finding meaningful work · [10:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=609) > "I, I, I went back to university, studied part-time, moved to Bombay, worked in corporate banking for a while there. Still wasn't what I thought it would give me. Then I took the sabbatical and I studied full-time for one year. I did my MBA at UCT and things shifted for me." > — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Finding meaningful work · [10:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=645) > "I think that sabbatical was one of the greatest gifts I gave myself because post that, I went into the development sector and I've done various things in development, so, socioeconomic development, local economic development, and I found work incredibly meaningful." > — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Finding meaningful work · [11:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=661) > "It was like I came back to myself and I had a, a good twenty years ahead of me in terms of work, of my work life, twenty, thirty years ahead of me. So that one year gave me job satisfaction for the rest of my working career." > — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Finding meaningful work · [11:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=679) > "So I'm also, together with a, with my career, I'm also a yoga practitioner. I, I studied, Hatha yoga, and I teach from time to time. But I started the meditation, introspective journey about twenty odd years ago," > — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Introspection and self-discovery · [12:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=737) > "because introspection and, and, and this journey to self-actualization is not linear. You know, it sort of goes up and down, and, and sometimes you feel like you're getting nowhere, but working with somebody helps you stay your course and helps you realign for those days that you, you falter." > — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Introspection and self-discovery · [13:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=791) > "because I've had a tremendous benefit from working with a series of coaches, you know, some from early career through to into executive and you, they see things that you can't see, you know, and they also help you to not believe your own stories you're telling yourself" > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Introspection and self-discovery · [13:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=826) > "The journey of introspection in itself is lonely. The journey of a sabbatical in itself is lonely. Pre-COVID especially, you wake up, you go to an office, you are surrounded by colleagues. Now when you take a sabbatical, that, that immediately falls away." > — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Introspection and self-discovery · [14:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=868) > "And for most of it, the beauty came in those moments when I wasn't actually backpacking. You know, it was in the moments I met people that, that changed my life forever. It was in those moments where I was given a book that changed my perspective forever." > — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Taking conscious career breaks · [15:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=958) > "It taught me self-reliance, because you're now in a foreign country on your own. it, it taught me empathy. It, it accelerated my EQ." > — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Introspection and self-discovery · [16:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=982) > "In nature, nature retreats for it to recover. While it looks like it's, it's winter outside, all the little buds are starting to grow anyway. And it was just such a beautiful analogy, for sometimes people need to winter as well." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Grief and recovery · [17:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1032) > "Coming back to the workforce after taking a sabbatical from, from, for studying is always easy because you're almost able to explain yourself better. That was much easy. It was a career shift." > — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Re-entering the workforce · [18:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1116) > "Post that, I had a short break, and, That was a bit harder. You know, it's almost like we're still stuck in that world where people just work, work, work, work, work, and nobody understands a break." > — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Re-entering the workforce · [18:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1129) > "I, I didn't understand that grieving might be a lifetime experience, you know. I was looking for some end date to it. But joining the workforce helped me find that balance between Keeping busy and appreciating what's just happened, through COVID." > — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Grief and recovery · [19:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1176) > "through, through all these various sabbaticals, I identified four or five things that are meaningful for my existence. So in a day, I try and ensure that I have some touch points with those things. Of course, there's days where, as you know, you just, corporate just runs away with you. If I have two or more of those kind of days, I then have to sit and reevaluate my life." > — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Keeping a sabbatical mindset · [20:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1250) > "So, it's a blend of social, community, family, prayer, and exercise. I, I, I know I'm derailing when I have days where there's only work and, and none of that or very little of that, and then I pull it back." > — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Keeping a sabbatical mindset · [21:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1293) > "You know, I excuse myself from meetings if it's prayer time. I say I'll be a bit late on a deadline because I have another engagement. So I just pull it back and nobody, nobody's, ever suffered as a result of that, you know." > — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Keeping a sabbatical mindset · [21:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1308) > "And I think with remote working, that, that is such a pleasure because you don't need to be in one place, to do the work you love and also have a kind of sabbatical mindset because you're not stuck in an office." > — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Keeping a sabbatical mindset · [23:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1399) > "I've got so much to do where I am right now, but a lot of what I do is also about teaching people how to be, even in the workspace, to understand that, you, you can do your job and be true to yourself." > — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Identity separate from job · [24:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1440) > "And that for me was a win, because if people close to me didn't exactly know what I did, it meant that they weren't attached to what I do." > — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Identity separate from job · [25:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1512) > "my plan was to be off for a year, to give myself permission to not do any employer type work for a year, and to fill up the year with things that I've always wanted to do and things I'm curious about," > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Taking conscious career breaks · [25:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1534) > "because people get so caught up in the busyness of life and climbing and the whole rat race, you know, the getting, and, and when you're in it, you can't actually see that you're trapped in it." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Taking conscious career breaks · [26:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1587) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Rediscovering balance between meaningful work and personal fulfilment. Episode 1 of a series of podcasts on taking conscious breaks from the rat-race. Fatima Collins, Women in Mining Project Manager (Sibanye-Stillwater), shares her experiences of taking four different breaks throughout her career for different reasons, including travel, self-discovery, studying, and grieving. She emphasises the importance of introspection, finding meaningful work, and maintaining a balance between work and personal fulfilment. The conversation explores the motivations, challenges, and benefits of taking breaks, as well as strategies for reintegrating into the workforce afterwards. Key takeaways include the value of self-reflection, the pursuit of purpose, and the ability to design a life aligned with one's values. More about Petro du Pisani and On Change here · Connect with Petro · Solid Gold Podcasts ## #025 Unleashing my superpowers | Patience Mpofu - Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/025-unleashing-my-superpowers/ - Date: 2022-08-29 (as at 2022-08-29) - Guest: Patience Mpofu - Host: Petro du Pisani - Themes: Women in mining, Career journey in mining, Leadership and self-knowledge, Sponsorship and male champions, ESG and impact, Unleashing my Superpowers book - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1220971 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Patience Mpofu - CEO · Peak Performance with Patience and Insights Mining Experts - Born in Zimbabwe; studied applied chemistry and did a PhD in mineral processing in Australia; worked at Impala Platinum, Anglo American, Lonmin and South32, where she was vice president corporate affairs; wrote Unleashing my Superpowers, a No. 1 International best seller. In their own words: > "I actually studied applied chemistry. I worked for a chemical ind- chemical company called Hext, that time I think now it's called BASF." [01:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=77) > "I then did a BSc in Applied Science, and thereafter I then did a PhD in Mineral Processing in Australia. I got a scholarship when I was working for Impala," [01:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=118) > "So when I came back, I was sponsored by Anglo American. So I had to come back and work for Anglo American for two years. But guess what? I stayed for ten years. So I was employed as a project metallurgist." [06:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=390) > "I moved into strategy. I was a senior strategy analyst. Now that was a more senior role. We were engaging with the Exco, working on different options, fact-based insights, industry and competitor analysis." [09:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=587) > "Then I joined Lonmin and became senior manager business development, at Lonmin. Exciting career. However, we had Marikana, of course, three months when I joined, but there are always lessons." [10:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=650) > "I was headhunted by South32, and my last role was, vice president corporate affairs at South32." [11:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=682) > "So I used to do pro bono at this business school for about five years, as a leadership coach. So we used to coach the MBA students, and I really enjoyed it." [12:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=744) > "the third part was then the book, Unleashing my Superpowers, which I published last year in August, and fortunately I became number one bestseller on Amazon, on different categories," [16:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=986) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Petro du Pisani interviews Dr Patience Mpofu, a former vice president corporate affairs at South32, about her path from applied chemistry in Zimbabwe and South Africa to a PhD in Australia and senior roles at Anglo American, Lonmin and South32. Mpofu describes the challenges she faced as a woman and single mother in a male-dominated industry. She explains how the IWF fellowship led to her survey of women, a 100-day interview campaign and her bestselling book, Unleashing my Superpowers. She sets out her advice on self-knowledge, cheerleaders and sponsorship, and discusses ESG and her drive for impact. **Key ideas** - Mpofu says mining chose her rather than the reverse, and that the industry offers both opportunity and the downside of being male-dominated. ([03:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=238) [03:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=238) [04:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=280)) - She argues organisations must be structured so young women can be mothers at home and still deliver at work. ([06:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=378) [08:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=481) [08:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=519)) - Mpofu holds that careers are not straight lines and that leadership is tested in a crisis. ([18:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1096) [18:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1099) [18:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1130) [23:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1382)) - Her first step to unleashing superpowers is knowing yourself, for example through a 360 review and ikigai. ([19:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1164) [19:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1184) [29:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1746)) - She stresses having a cheerleader, a coach and a buddy, illustrated by being stuck on a pole during a retreat challenge. ([20:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1233) [20:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1233) [21:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1306) [22:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1361)) - Mpofu challenges male leaders in mining to sponsor women, noting her view that males mostly sponsor other males. ([17:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1059) [23:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1413) [23:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1430) [26:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1611)) - She says her highest value is impact, which links her ESG, sustainability and corporate affairs work. ([24:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1485) [24:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1499) [25:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1527) [26:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1578)) **Unleashing my Superpowers** ([17:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1059) [19:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1164) [19:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1184) [20:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1233) [20:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1233) [22:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1361) [23:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1430)) 1. Know yourself: your strengths, what challenges you, your values and biases; use a 360 review and ikigai. 2. Find your cheerleaders: a coach or mentor, and a buddy who encourages you when you face challenges. 3. Seek and become sponsors and champions, especially male leaders sponsoring women and standing against discrimination. 4. Step out of your comfort zone and use your voice to be the change you want to see. **Lessons** - Mpofu advises women in STEM in mining to get their hands dirty in operations. ([07:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=424) [07:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=431)) - She says that according to her survey grit alone does not get you to C-suite; relationships matter. ([28:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1682)) - Mpofu suggests doing a 360 review to know yourself, even though the first one can be painful. ([19:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1184)) - She advises having both a coach and a buddy to encourage you through self-doubt. ([22:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1361) [22:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1363)) - She notes that following your passion must be balanced against paying the bills. ([29:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1746) [29:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1760)) **Who it's for:** Women in or considering STEM and mining careers, male leaders in mining who want to sponsor women, and anyone interested in leadership, ESG and navigating a male-dominated workplace. **Facts stated in the episode** - Her PhD scholarship was funded by ten mining companies to solve tailings re-treatment problems. ([02:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=145)) - She was sponsored to work for Anglo American for two years but stayed for ten. ([06:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=390)) - She joined Lonmin about three months before Marikana. ([10:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=650)) - She was a pro bono leadership coach at a business school for about five years. ([12:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=744)) - Her survey covered more than 150 to 200 women, about sixty percent in mining. ([14:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=878)) - Unleashing my Superpowers was published in August and became a number one bestseller on Amazon. ([16:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=986)) - The host says she has over 25 years of senior leadership mining experience and over 10 peer-reviewed publications. ([00:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=21)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: How did Patience Mpofu get into the mining industry?** A: She says mining chose her: she worked for a chemical company supplying mining, then Impala Platinum, then won a scholarship funded by ten mining companies to do a PhD in mineral processing in Australia. ([01:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=77) [01:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=118) [02:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=145) [03:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=238)) **Q: What roles did Patience Mpofu hold in mining?** A: Project metallurgist at Anglo American, where she stayed ten years, then strategy roles, senior manager business development at Lonmin, and finally vice president corporate affairs at South32. ([06:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=390) [09:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=587) [10:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=650) [11:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=682)) **Q: What is the book Unleashing my Superpowers about?** A: It helps women navigate and succeed in male-dominated mining. It grew from an IWF legacy project including a survey of women and a 100-day interview campaign, and became an Amazon number one bestseller. ([14:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=857) [14:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=878) [15:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=927) [16:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=986)) **Q: How can I unleash my superpowers as a leader?** A: Mpofu says first know yourself, using a 360 and ikigai; then find cheerleaders such as a coach and buddy; and seek sponsors and champions. ([17:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1059) [19:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1164) [20:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1233) [22:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1361)) **Q: Why does Patience Mpofu say women need sponsors in mining?** A: She says studies show males mostly sponsor other males, and calls on leaders to become sponsors and champions for women and for diversity, equity and inclusion. ([20:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1233) [23:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1413) [23:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1430)) **Q: What did the IWF fellowship give her?** A: She says the females-only programme felt psychologically safe, a sisterhood where women can be vulnerable and themselves, and it gave her confidence to write the book. ([13:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=793)) **Q: Is grit enough to reach C-suite?** A: Mpofu says her survey found you do not need only grit to get to C-suite; you need relationships. ([28:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1682)) **Q: Why is Patience Mpofu excited about the mining industry's future?** A: She says climate change is making people realise the importance of critical minerals like lithium, and that mining impacts daily life. ([31:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1904)) ### Passage: From PhD to Anglo American and single motherhood [06:18–08:50, 459 words] Note (AI): Shows her early mining career path and how being a single mother shaped her role choices, raising the question of inclusive organisations. Patience Mpofu, guest [06:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=378): > So when I got my scholarship, went to Australia, studied my PhD. I did it for three and a half years. I published on how to recycle more water, as I mentioned, for particularly clay minerals. So when I came back, I was sponsored by Anglo American. So I had to come back and work for Anglo American for two years. But guess what? I stayed for ten years. So I was employed as a project metallurgist. I used to travel to all the operations, you know, Amanda Belt, Union Operations. I used to go there, wear the overalls. Sometimes that looked much bigger on the, on, on the waist. But that's the thing about the mining industry. It presents you with all those challenges, right? I learned quite a lot. I built a lot of relationships with people in the operations. And one of the things that I actually learned, and what I always coach most of the women in mining, is as a woman in STEM in mining, you need to get your hands dirty. And that's one of the things that I actually learned as I was going in the operations. I spent almost three years as a project metallurgist. Then I moved to Anglo American Research when the, when the merger actually happened, because before I was at Anglo Research, Anglo Research. Then Anglo American and Anglo Platinum Research merged. I was now looking after some of the operations in Chile, in Brazil, across all the Anglo American operations, doing benchmarking work on water optimization. So I spent another two and a half years, then I moved to the head office at Anglo Platinum. Why did I move into, head office, Anglo Platinum? It's all about the challenges that we face as young women. I had a son. It was very difficult for me to travel and leave my son. I didn't have, I'm a single mom. I didn't have anyone else to look after my son, and I had to make a decision. I remember one day I saw an advert that was looking for a planning analyst. And in my mind, I already know I want to look for a role that will help me to integrate my personal life and my work, which means I can have enough time to come home to my son and hug him and not rely on other people to take care of my son. So these are some of the things that we talk about, the challenges as a young woman in mining. The question is, how are organizations now structured to be more inclusive for young women, right? To allow them to still be mothers at home and still be able to deliver at work. ### Passage: The three-part IWF legacy project behind the book [14:17–17:17, 503 words] Note (AI): Explains how the survey, the 100-day interview campaign and the book fit together, and how she measures the book's impact. Patience Mpofu, guest [14:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=857): > So I reflected on my journey and I said, you know what? As a strategist, there are three things that I want to do. Number one, I want to do a survey. I'm a researcher at heart. So the first part of the legacy project, which is part of the IWF Fellows Program, I did a research. I interviewed, well, not interviewed, I did a research survey of more than 150, 200 women. Mostly sixty percent were in mining. We were asking them questions. What made you succeed? What are the challenges that you're facing? Because I always believe in also data, because somebody's going to challenge you to say, why are you saying this in your book? Did you do anything? And as a researcher, I needed to then get data, and that's what I did. Through social media, connected with people, got a huge network, and it was really successful. People volunteered, and they provided. So we did it through Monkey Survey, and the results are available on my website, UnleashingMySuperPowers.com. Then the second part, we asked the question, I then wanted to do interviews, because I thought, I can put my leadership story, but I want to understand other women who have succeeded. Let me do a 100-day campaign. Let me interview women who have succeeded, people like Deshni Naidu, Raksha Naidu. So I invited a lot of women and I said, can you participate in this interview, 100-day campaign? I interviewed the women over a period of about three to four months across the globe, and mostly it was women in STEM, but I also included women leaders like Professor Shelley Zhen. I interviewed her because I wanted to get a perspective of leaders who are at C-suite board level to understand what does it really take to succeed in a male-dominated work environment to break the glass ceiling. It was phenomenal. The interview is available on YouTube. It was phenomenal because a lot of women, they kept asking me, oh my God, this is amazing. Oh my God. Because the interviews, like what you're doing right now, it will stay. The key messages are there. So we did that, and then the third part was then the book, Unleashing my Superpowers, which I published last year in August, and fortunately I became number one bestseller on Amazon, on different categories, but it's not just about being number one bestseller. It's about the message that you hear from the people who have read the book. For me, that is impact. That made me feel I have achieved what I wanted to achieve. When you hear women say, I read your book, I feel myself in this story. I wish I had this book. It's like a manual. I don't leave this book with me. This one lady will say to me, Patience, my daughter, I'm keeping this book for my daughter. This is an important book for my daughter. If she wants to pursue STEM, this is the book. ### Passage: Why the book is called Unleashing my Superpowers [17:39–19:12, 274 words] Note (AI): Sets out her view that careers are not straight lines and that leadership is tested in crisis. Patience Mpofu, guest [17:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1059): > So I wrote the book. I used to journal. I mean, as a leader, you want to reflect and you want to journal. So I used to do that. I used to reflect and journal. So I took all the journals that I had, you know, put it together. And all of a sudden I asked myself, what is the title of the book? I don't even have the title of the book. Then I came with Unleashing my Superpowers. You know why? Because in each and every part of my story, there was an up and a down, an up and a down, an up and a down, but it was an upward moment. And what does it tell you? It tells you that life It's not a straight line. A career is not a straight line. You will face challenges. You will face adversity. It's about how you rise as a leader. How do you rise? It's much easier when you're rising, but when you fall, how do you rise again to become the leader that you're called to be? That's Unleashing my Superpowers. You need something extra to get you to that level. And this is where leadership is tested. What type of a leader are you in a crisis when everything's all fine? Everybody can be a good leader. But when there is a crisis, what type of a leader are you? Are you a compassionate leader? Are you a leader who stands and leads people? Are you a caring leader? Do you make decisions in crisis? And that is the reason why I call my book Unleashing my Superpowers. ### Passage: The pole climb: needing a cheerleader and coach [20:33–22:52, 398 words] Note (AI): A personal story illustrating why a coach and a buddy matter when self-doubt and fear set in. Patience Mpofu, guest [20:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1233): > Number two, as you rise, who is your cheerleader? Who is your cheerleader? Who is in your network? Who is that person who is going to help you to rise, right? Because you may be very good at what you do, but sometimes you may self-doubt yourself. As I said, there are challenges. And I'll give you an example. One day I went for a, a retreat, and I was climbing this pole, a Large pole, which is the size of a, of a plate, right? It was a challenge, Tony Robbins challenge. And I was, as I was rising, people were cheering me, oh, peak performance with patience, peak performance with patience. Everybody was cheering. They were so excited. There were about 60 people. We divided into two. So it was a challenge to challenge you to get out of your comfort zone, right? And as I was climbing, as I was reaching the top, I got stuck. I was stuck. I couldn't stand. The whole idea was to climb this 60 meter pole. When you get to the top, you stand, you grab a trapeze, and that shows that you have achieved. I couldn't do it. I think I was stuck for almost 15 minutes. Pedro, it was, it was embarrassing. I think people were thinking, what is this African woman doing up there? Because I was the only last one who was there. I was the last one to actually do the challenge. But anyway, the peak performance with patience, people were shouting, peak performance with patience. But when I was stuck, there was no one shouting, cheering me. Only two people, my coach, Dan, and Hayley. She was my buddy. Big performance with Patience. Patience, you can do this. You can do this. You're amazing. And Dan, Patience listened to me. This is what you can do. But I had fear when I was at the top. I was so scared. I wasn't even listening to him. The moment the fear disappeared and I listened to Dan, the coach, I could stand. But all of a sudden, everybody started cheering me. Big performance with Patience, right? So this is what I talk about. You need a Hayley and a Dan. A Dan is a coach. Do you have a coach? Do you have a mentor? Who's going to encourage you when you face challenges? ### Passage: Challenge to male leaders on sponsorship [23:02–24:29, 240 words] Note (AI): Her direct call for the mining industry's male leaders to sponsor and champion women and to stand against discrimination. Patience Mpofu, guest [23:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1382): > In life, we don't live in isolation. We live with people. And even in organization, do you have buddies? Do you have supporters? Do you have sponsors? Do you have champions? We often overlook having champions. And the question for me, especially for mining industry, male leaders, who is your champion? Whom are you championing? Whom are you mentoring? Whom are you sponsoring? And I think in my book, I talk about sponsorship. How do we level the ground? Because studies have shown that males, they mostly sponsor other males. How about females? When they go for drinks, they sponsor the males. How about females? And I think that's the challenge for me that I'm giving to the mining industry. How do we unleash the superpowers of females? Become a sponsor to a female. Become a champion for female. Become a champion for diversity, equity, inclusion, right? Be the leader. That stands on your own. That's why I have this on my hardcover. You're standing here on your own. You're saying, you know what? I am standing against discrimination. I'm standing against sexual harassment, and this is what I stand for. We need those kind of leaders. That's Unleashing my Superpowers. You need to unleash something extra to be the change you want to see in the world. It's about getting out of your comfort zone, using your voice to be the change you want to see in the world. ### Passage: Impact as highest value and ESG passion [24:45–27:23, 474 words] Note (AI): Connects her motivation, her ESG work across her career and her decision to speak openly in the book. Patience Mpofu, guest [24:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1485): > You know, when I get up in the morning and I feel I've transformed certain people's lives, for me, that's my highest value. When we did a value system when I was at NCR to say, what are your values? I realized my highest value is impact. And that is why the role of sustainability, the role of ESG, the role of communities, the role of impact, right? The role of corporate affairs when I was VP corporate affairs, I, I used to ask myself, why did I love this role? It is because my highest value is impact. When I know I have impacted somebody's life positively, that's what makes me get up in the morning. When I get up and I know I am making a difference, be it in an organization, I always found that I wasn't driven so much about financial return. I never used to negotiate too much on salary, right? But whenever I felt that my leader unleashing my superpowers, I'll do more because I'll be stretched. And when I felt that I'm impacting in an organization, it's not work for me. So for me, impacting and seeing that I'm making a difference in an organization. That's what gets me up in the morning. And I think we talk about ESG. I'm really passionate about ESG, environmental, social governance. I was already doing part of the ESG. I was already advancing ESG, PhD. It was environmental. I was solving sustainability issues. Social, when I was vice president corporate affairs, sustainability was my baby. That's what I used to do, working with communities, helping them. A shared value concept is one of the things that we need to really start thinking about as an industry. And of course, governance. You cannot succeed in a, as an organization. Repetition or risk, what do you do? Human rights, that's so important. So that gets me up in the morning, knowing that I'm impacting, knowing that I'm living life to my fullest, but most importantly, knowing that I've used my voice, you having the courage to use my voice. There hasn't been anyone who has been so honest in this book. And be vulnerable in my book and calling out to say, you know what? We don't want boys club. We want male champions. Not many people have done this, and I'm proud that I've done it because I thought to myself, if not me, then who? If not now, then when? Somebody has to do it. I remember one lady said to me, Patience, you know what? You're so courageous. You wrote a book about mining. It's an industry that not many people write about. And I said, you know what? If not me, then who? If not now, then when? And I did it, and I'm glad I did it. ### Quotes > "Mining chose me, Petro. I didn't deliberately go out to look for the mining industry." > — Patience Mpofu, guest · [03:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=238) > "as a woman in STEM in mining, you need to get your hands dirty." > — Patience Mpofu, guest · [07:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=431) > "A career is not a straight line. You will face challenges. You will face adversity. It's about how you rise as a leader." > — Patience Mpofu, guest · [18:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1099) > "Everybody can be a good leader. But when there is a crisis, what type of a leader are you?" > — Patience Mpofu, guest · [18:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1135) > "You need a Hayley and a Dan. A Dan is a coach." > — Patience Mpofu, guest · [22:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1363) > "when I felt that I'm impacting in an organization, it's not work for me." > — Patience Mpofu, guest · [25:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1543) > "We don't want boys club. We want male champions." > — Patience Mpofu, guest · [26:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1616) > "if not me, then who? If not now, then when? Somebody has to do it." > — Patience Mpofu, guest · [27:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1624) > "Women have superpowers, and it is time we unleash them." > — Patience Mpofu, guest · [33:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1996) > "you strike a woman, you strike a rock, let us all shine our light and help others shine theirs." > — Patience Mpofu, guest · [33:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=2005) ### Claims > "She has over 25 years of senior leadership mining experience and has authored and published over 10 international peer-reviewed journals on sustainability in the mining industry." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Career journey in mining · [00:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=21) > "I actually studied applied chemistry. I worked for a chemical ind- chemical company called Hext, that time I think now it's called BASF." > — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Career journey in mining · [01:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=77) > "I then did a BSc in Applied Science, and thereafter I then did a PhD in Mineral Processing in Australia. I got a scholarship when I was working for Impala," > — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Career journey in mining · [01:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=118) > "This scholarship was, funded by ten mining companies. It was supposed to be a project, I was supposed to work on a project to solve tailings re-treatment problems." > — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Career journey in mining · [02:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=145) > "Mining chose me, Petro. I didn't deliberately go out to look for the mining industry. The opportunity that I got was from the mining industry, as I mentioned before." > — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Career journey in mining · [03:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=238) > "It's an industry that you can have a love-hate relationship. Love it for the amazing opportunity, the big packages. I mean, it well pays. The amazing challenges that you get working in a male-dominated industry. But it also has the downside. It's male-dominated in nature." > — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Women in mining · [04:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=280) > "It's a challenging industry, it's got lots of opportunities, and I want to encourage every young girl to choose that industry." > — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Women in mining · [05:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=359) > "So when I came back, I was sponsored by Anglo American. So I had to come back and work for Anglo American for two years. But guess what? I stayed for ten years. So I was employed as a project metallurgist." > — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Career journey in mining · [06:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=390) > "And one of the things that I actually learned, and what I always coach most of the women in mining, is as a woman in STEM in mining, you need to get your hands dirty." > — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Women in mining · [07:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=424) > "I had a son. It was very difficult for me to travel and leave my son. I didn't have, I'm a single mom. I didn't have anyone else to look after my son, and I had to make a decision." > — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Women in mining · [08:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=481) > "The question is, how are organizations now structured to be more inclusive for young women, right? To allow them to still be mothers at home and still be able to deliver at work." > — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Women in mining · [08:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=519) > "For the first time, We had a female CEO, Cynthia Carroll, for Anglo American. Everything just changed. The safety culture. When we talk about role models for women, for me, that was the most important epiphany moment for me, to say we can have a woman to be a leader in a male-dominated industry." > — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Women in mining · [09:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=554) > "I moved into strategy. I was a senior strategy analyst. Now that was a more senior role. We were engaging with the Exco, working on different options, fact-based insights, industry and competitor analysis." > — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Career journey in mining · [09:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=587) > "I wanted to be able to do majors and acquisition in mining, because I realized if I have not done any deals, would I actually be able to lead in a mining company? Would I get to a C-suite position?" > — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Career journey in mining · [10:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=633) > "Then I joined Lonmin and became senior manager business development, at Lonmin. Exciting career. However, we had Marikana, of course, three months when I joined, but there are always lessons." > — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Career journey in mining · [10:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=650) > "I was headhunted by South32, and my last role was, vice president corporate affairs at South32." > — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Career journey in mining · [11:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=682) > "So I used to do pro bono at this business school for about five years, as a leadership coach. So we used to coach the MBA students, and I really enjoyed it." > — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Leadership and self-knowledge · [12:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=744) > "It's females only, yeah? You feel psychologically safe. Number two, you know, is sisters. That's sisterhood, where you can share, where you can become vulnerable, and you can be yourself." > — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Women in mining · [13:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=793) > "I did a research survey of more than 150, 200 women. Mostly sixty percent were in mining. We were asking them questions. What made you succeed? What are the challenges that you're facing?" > — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Unleashing my Superpowers book · [14:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=878) > "Let me do a 100-day campaign. Let me interview women who have succeeded, people like Deshni Naidu, Raksha Naidu." > — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Unleashing my Superpowers book · [15:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=927) > "the third part was then the book, Unleashing my Superpowers, which I published last year in August, and fortunately I became number one bestseller on Amazon, on different categories," > — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Unleashing my Superpowers book · [16:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=986) > "It tells you that life It's not a straight line. A career is not a straight line. You will face challenges. You will face adversity. It's about how you rise as a leader." > — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Leadership and self-knowledge · [18:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1096) > "What type of a leader are you in a crisis when everything's all fine? Everybody can be a good leader. But when there is a crisis, what type of a leader are you?" > — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Leadership and self-knowledge · [18:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1130) > "as a leader, number one, you need to know yourself. You need to know yourself. You need to know your strengths. You need to know what challenges you. If you don't know yourself, somebody can tell you who you are." > — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Leadership and self-knowledge · [19:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1164) > "You need to do a 360. I'm sure you know the 360, especially in organizations. I mean, personally, the first time I hit my 360, Petro, it was painful," > — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Leadership and self-knowledge · [19:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1184) > "Number two, as you rise, who is your cheerleader? Who is your cheerleader? Who is in your network? Who is that person who is going to help you to rise, right?" > — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Leadership and self-knowledge · [20:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1233) > "I think I was stuck for almost 15 minutes. Pedro, it was, it was embarrassing. I think people were thinking, what is this African woman doing up there?" > — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Leadership and self-knowledge · [21:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1306) > "So this is what I talk about. You need a Hayley and a Dan. A Dan is a coach. Do you have a coach? Do you have a mentor? Who's going to encourage you when you face challenges?" > — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Sponsorship and male champions · [22:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1361) > "Because studies have shown that males, they mostly sponsor other males. How about females? When they go for drinks, they sponsor the males." > — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Sponsorship and male champions · [23:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1413) > "Become a sponsor to a female. Become a champion for female. Become a champion for diversity, equity, inclusion, right?" > — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Sponsorship and male champions · [23:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1430) > "I realized my highest value is impact. And that is why the role of sustainability, the role of ESG, the role of communities, the role of impact, right?" > — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: ESG and impact · [24:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1499) > "I always found that I wasn't driven so much about financial return. I never used to negotiate too much on salary, right?" > — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: ESG and impact · [25:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1527) > "A shared value concept is one of the things that we need to really start thinking about as an industry." > — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: ESG and impact · [26:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1578) > "And be vulnerable in my book and calling out to say, you know what? We don't want boys club. We want male champions." > — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Sponsorship and male champions · [26:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1611) > "But you don't need only grit, because we did a survey to say, do you need grit to get to C-suite? No, you don't. You now need relationships." > — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Leadership and self-knowledge · [28:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1682) > "The Ikigai is about what are you good at? What are you passionate about? What does the world need? And what gives you the financial returns?" > — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Leadership and self-knowledge · [29:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1746) > "Like with me right now, I followed my passion. Does it pay the bills? Not necessarily. That's why I'll be going back to corporate. I still need to pay the bills." > — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Career journey in mining · [29:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1760) > "I'm excited about the industry, the mining industry, because now people are realizing when you talk about climate change, the importance of the critical minerals that we need." > — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: ESG and impact · [31:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1904) > "I am today where I am because there were male champions, there were females that held my hand, and I want to honor those people, and I'm doing the same to hold other women." > — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Sponsorship and male champions · [32:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1960) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) A lesson on how to navigate in a male-dominated mining work environment. In this episode, Petro du Pisani speaks to Dr. Patience Mpofu, who is a multi-award winner as one of the most influential women in Mining, and a former Vice President of an Australian listed company. She is a global mining sustainability thought leader (ESG) an IWF fellow alumni, executive leadership coach, and STEM advocate. In this episode Dr. Mpofu gives an overview of her personal history, a story of grit and determination... and how she ended up writing her No. 1 International best seller "Unleashing my Superpowers," which teaches women how to navigate and succeed in a male-dominated mining work environment. Find Dr. Patience Mpofu here · Peak Performance with Patience · Connect with Petro · Solid Gold Podcasts ## #023 Harnessing shared leadership to improve strategic coherence | Jordan Ludlow - Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/023-harnessing-shared-leadership-to-improve-strategic/ - Date: 2022-07-18 (as at 2022-07-18) - Guest: Jordan Ludlow - Host: Petro du Pisani - Themes: Shared leadership, Strategic coherence, Social constructs and culture, Human agency and autonomy, Complexity and uncertainty, EMBA research methodology, Strategy practice - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1206229 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Jordan Ludlow - managing director · Tradereach · Durban - Completed a BSc honors in biochemistry and a postgraduate diploma in business administration at UCT; worked ten years at British American Tobacco in consumer marketing, product development, blending and trade roles; now MD in FMCG logistics. In their own words: > "I studied a, a BSc, and I completed a BSc honors in biochemistry a long time ago. I've since gone on to study a postgraduate diploma in business administration at the UCT," [01:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=71) > "I started with British American Tobacco, post studies. I've worked in, for them for ten years in consumer marketing, product development, and blending, and various trade roles." [01:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=85) > "And I am now working for a retail, specialist retail asset management business operating in the FMCG logistics industry. I'm currently the MD at that business," [01:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=97) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Host Petro interviews fellow UCT EMBA graduate Jordan Ludlow, MD of a specialist retail asset management business in FMCG logistics, about his research on improving strategic coherence. Jordan describes how complexity theory shifted him from seeking a single truth to accepting he need not have all the answers, his two-stage action research with fourteen interviews and constructivist grounded theory, and three findings: shared leadership, the pull of social constructs such as culture and habitus, and human agency. He explains how he applied this by reshaping strategy practice with OKRs and regular meeting rhythms, and urges leaders to surface unwritten organisational rules. **Key ideas** - Jordan argues that complex, emergent challenges mean knowledge cannot sit only in the leader's head, which freed him to accept uncertainty and draw on others' perspectives. ([03:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=191) [03:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=226) [03:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=239) [04:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=243)) - Drawing on Johan Strumpfer, Jordan describes moving from first-order (design the outcome) to second-order organisation (design the rules), allowing high control through alignment alongside high autonomy. ([08:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=481) [08:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=504) [08:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=504)) - Jordan's research found three antecedents of shared leadership: shared purpose, social support and voice. ([12:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=776) [13:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=812) [13:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=833)) - Jordan found culture, habitus and power dynamics such as proximity to leaders led people to make decisions they did not think they should make. ([09:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=592) [12:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=776) [15:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=904) [15:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=947)) - Jordan says shared, distributed leadership works best where work is interdependent, creative and complex, as strategic work is. ([17:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1069) [18:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1119) [19:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1150)) - Jordan holds that enabling individual agency through meaningful autonomy is crucial for high-performing organisations. ([17:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1021) [17:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1025)) - The host adds that every person shapes culture, and that changing an organisation's story requires first understanding the stories it has told itself. ([24:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1482) [24:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1491) [28:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1734)) **Jordan's reshaped strategy practice** ([22:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1345) [23:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1392) [23:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1429)) 1. Ensure alignment and access to information. 2. Create a space for debate. 3. Build shared understanding of the context and what the team is going after. 4. Empower individuals to take accountability, with clearly defined outcomes in granular OKRs. 5. Establish consistent quarterly, monthly and weekly strategic meeting rhythms with key stakeholders. **Lessons** - Jordan suggests leaders do not need all the answers; people least expected to contribute may add value by seeing the problem through a different lens. ([04:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=245) [26:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1567) [26:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1580)) - According to Jordan, leaders initiating change should make the unwritten rules and social constructs explicit rather than ignore their power. ([26:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1618) [27:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1649) [27:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1649)) - Jordan reports that moving strategy from ad hoc practice to set rhythms, OKRs and transparent information improved collaboration, ownership and sense of purpose. ([22:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1345) [23:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1429) [24:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1453)) - Jordan notes response speed to change is hard to achieve under a traditional hierarchical model. ([06:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=409)) - The host argues command and control has a place in emergencies, but productive work needs everyone to have a voice. ([21:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1308)) **Who it's for:** Managers and executives in operational or hierarchical businesses considering shared leadership, leaders trying to improve strategy execution, and EMBA or business research students interested in action research and constructivist grounded theory. **Facts stated in the episode** - Jordan worked at British American Tobacco for ten years. ([01:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=85)) - Jordan conducted fourteen interviews of about an hour and a half each. ([11:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=695)) - Interviewees ranged from people with twenty years' tenure to two years, and saw the same things. ([28:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1686)) - Jordan's research used two-stage action research and constructivist grounded theory. ([10:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=641) [12:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=728)) - Jordan's research title concerned a theory for improved strategic coherence, exploring leadership practice and the social constructs of culture and habitus. ([07:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=448)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: What is strategic coherence in an organisation?** A: Jordan describes it as a mutual understanding of an organisation's direction across multiple levels, so people can make the right decisions in their daily work rather than just churning. ([17:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1069) [19:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1150)) **Q: What are the building blocks of shared leadership?** A: Jordan's research identified three antecedents: shared purpose around collective goals, social support where team members give each other emotional and psychological strength, and voice, meaning input into how the team carries out its purpose. ([13:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=812) [13:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=833)) **Q: When does shared leadership work better than command and control?** A: Jordan says it tends to have better outcomes where work is highly interdependent, requires creativity and is complex. The host adds that command and control still suits emergencies. ([18:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1119) [21:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1308)) **Q: How can organisational culture hold people back?** A: Jordan found culture, habitus and proximity to leaders pushed people into decisions they didn't think they should make, limiting their perceived capacity for action. ([15:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=904) [15:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=947) [28:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1708)) **Q: How do you apply shared leadership to strategy in practice?** A: Jordan focuses on alignment and access to information, space for debate, shared understanding, accountability via granular OKRs, and consistent quarterly, monthly and weekly meeting rhythms. ([22:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1345) [23:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1392) [23:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1429)) **Q: What research method did this EMBA project use?** A: A mixed methodology: two-stage action research with fourteen interviews of about an hour and a half plus follow-ups with executive leadership, analysed using constructivist grounded theory. ([10:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=641) [11:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=695) [12:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=728)) **Q: Can you have high control and high autonomy at the same time?** A: Jordan argues yes, if control takes the form of alignment between parts rather than traditional control, with frameworks that help people understand how and why they make decisions. ([08:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=504) [08:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=504)) **Q: What should a leader joining a new organisation watch for?** A: Jordan advises recognising unwritten, embedded rules no one talks about and not negating the power of these social constructs when trying to initiate change. ([26:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1618) [27:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1649)) ### Passage: From single-truth analyst to comfort with uncertainty [03:11–04:52, 270 words] Note (AI): Jordan explains how complexity theory changed his view that a leader must hold all answers, the shift that underpins his later research. Jordan Ludlow, guest [03:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=191): > I think for me, coming from my traditional science background, I really was very heavily skewed towards an analytical, the pursuit of a single truth and a solutions-driven sort of determinist mindset where I really wanted to Have a high degree of certainty in my decisions. I wanted to be able to analyze data and make one single decision, which was that objective truth and that perfect way forward. And that for me was probably the greatest learning from the MBA journey. It really challenged that like fundamental worldview. Things like complexity theory, you know, really helped me to understand that there are such complex and emergent challenges for today's organizations that the, the knowledge can't simply be in the head of the leader. And that was quite liberating for me, understanding that as the leader, you don't have to have all the answers. And what that did for me, it paved the way to firstly be a lot more comfortable with that uncertainty and have a little bit more patience to allow patterns to emerge as I sort of probe things. It also allowed me to really embrace Multiple perspectives and really like leverage the diversity of the people around me and, you know, their own lived experiences and the lenses with which they viewed the same problems that I was seeing. And that really was probably my single biggest learning, really a fundamental change in the way that I viewed the world. You know, the relational elements and the dimension of, of organizations really also resonated strongly with me, and I, I, I really, really enjoyed the course. ### Passage: Why he chose meaningful autonomy as his research topic [05:38–07:23, 279 words] Note (AI): Sets out the two principles behind the research: emergent organisational challenges and human-populated systems, linked to response speed under hierarchy. Jordan Ludlow, guest [05:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=338): > So, you know, since, since my, my first position paper, I've really been fascinated with this sort of idea of Of real meaningful autonomy and how you actually create the conditions for this meaningful autonomy, for people to actually really take accountability for their own decisions. You know, I work in a very operational environment. There's a lot of day-to-day operational noise. And for me, as a leader in that space, It was really around trying to understand how I can allow people to take some of that operational noise out of my day-to-day role so that I can focus on some of my key objectives, and, and really how do I empower them to actually do that. And that really was the starting point. And, and it really started in position paper one, and, and there was a, a very, very close thread through a lot of my position papers. And really it was on, on, on sort of two key principles. It was on, on the complexity, the emergent nature, and the challenges of organizations, and the fact that those organizations have to adapt to challenges that are only seen sometimes in the day-to-day work by employees. and, and often the success of those organizations is determined by the speed between when they detect an, an adjustment or a change, and the response that they take. And that response It's very difficult to get quickly if you are running an old traditional hierarchical model of working. And then the second element really was around the, the human populated systems as organizations, and how complex they are just because of all those worldviews and different ways of viewing. ### Passage: Three findings: shared leadership antecedents and social constructs [12:56–16:08, 464 words] Note (AI): The core research findings: shared purpose, social support and voice, plus how culture, habitus and proximity to power shaped employees' decisions. Jordan Ludlow, guest [12:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=776): > My major learnings, and, obviously quite difficult to, to condense, this down into, into a short conversation, but there were three key ones for me. The first one was, was around shared leadership. In terms of how do you enable this, this new type of leadership, the shift from a traditional hierarchical, command and control leadership paradigm to this new way of leading in the world. And, and obviously that's Was very much linked to the complexity, the fact that I wanted to try and empower people. So shared leadership really, for me, the three key ways or antecedents to shared leadership, which came out of my research, was how do you create shared purpose? So team members having similar meanings of the team's primary objectives and focusing on collective goals. How do you enable social support where team members provide emotional and psychological strength to one another, which improves the cooperation and a shared sense of responsibility for those outcomes? And then the third one is voice, the degree to which a team's members have input into how the team carries out its purpose. And those three were really, really important, and they came out very, very strongly in the research. The shared leadership is also very much like a relational dimension, and through exercising it, myself as a leader, and we'll talk about it a little bit later, has seen significant improvements in levels of strategic coherence within the organization. So that was the, that was the first learning. The second one was around the social constructs, culture, habitus, power. What I found through the research, and I had some ideas of it coming into the research about how strongly ingrained, the culture of the organization was, but it really, it really came to the fore when I started interviewing people, when they, when there was such a great degree of synergy between the different interviews. People were talking around characteristics like high energy, entrepreneurial, and impulsive culture, a culture of subjective decision-making, a culture dominated by informal and unstructured communication networks, and then very strong power dynamics in what people term proximity, how close you were to leaders or how well you engaged with leaders. That proximity had a very, very different effect depending on where you were in the organization and how close you were to some of the leadership team. And the research showed how markedly those Socially acceptable ways of practicing were impacting what people felt was available to them, and they were making decisions which they didn't entirely think they should be making, but purely on the back of, of the pressure of these social constructs, which were sort of just un, un, underneath, sitting underneath their action, and just slowly sort of manipulating how people behaved. ### Passage: When shared leadership fits: interdependence, creativity, complexity [17:49–19:29, 220 words] Note (AI): Gives the three work characteristics that favour distributed leadership and explains why strategy work was his focus. Jordan Ludlow, guest [17:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1069): > So for me, that shared leadership concept really, really resonated with me. But, so I've really tried within my own sphere of influence to try and Make a concerted effort to shift from that traditional heroic hierarchical vertical leadership to a more shared leadership. But also, for me, there's like a pragmatic realization that the magnitude of the shift is really, really large. And there are certain areas that this type of shift to a more shared, distributed, collaborative leadership is more beneficial for an organization. And, you know, there's, there's three areas from the research that I did, which if those characteristics are present in the type of work you're doing, there's a significant chance that a more shared, distributed leadership will have much better outcomes. And that's really around the, the level of interdependence in the work that you're doing. The degree to which it requires creativity and the complexity of that work. And for me, strategic work exhibits each of those three characteristics. And that's really why our foundation for me was around how do you create strategic coherence, a mutual understanding of an organization's direction amongst multiple levels of an organization so that people can make the right decisions in their day-to-day work and progress the organization forward, as opposed to just keep moving and churning. ### Passage: Reshaping strategy practice with OKRs and meeting rhythms [22:25–24:27, 301 words] Note (AI): A practical account of how the research was applied: alignment, debate, accountability, granular OKRs and fixed meeting cadences, with reported results. Jordan Ludlow, guest [22:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1345): > Very much so. And, and, and that's why I sort of found that the, the practical application for me has been very much in the strategy space. So I've reshaped the way that my organization, because I've got, I've got the ability to influence that quite heavily, I've reshaped sort of the way that we, we practice strategy. and I've really tried to harness this more collaborative, shared, distributed leadership to try and create alignments and try and get a structural framework of transition rules, which allow those people, that are, that are within that strategy space to exercise true and meaningful autonomy, when they go about their daily work. And, you know, for me, some of the key elements, and they're quite simple, really, is, is around just alignment and access to information, which we, we often forget about. It's, it's about creating a space for debate, building shared understanding of the context and what we're going after, you know, what really are we going after. It's, it's about empowering individuals to take accountability to deliver. We've got really, really clearly defined expected outcomes in granular OKRs now from a strategy perspective with the priorities that we're setting. And then another key thing for me has been establishing consistent strategic meeting rhythms. We had a very much a, a ad hoc way of practicing strategy, and we've, we've now got into quarterly, monthly, weekly meeting rhythms, key stakeholders, granular OKRs, absolute accountability, full access to transparent information. And we've been running it since Since late last year, so, we're now into the fourth quarter that we're running it, or third quarter that we're running it, and I think I am seeing some significant improvements just in terms of the collaboration, the ownership, and a sense of purpose amongst the team. ### Passage: Key message: unwritten rules beneath every organisation [26:58–28:40, 293 words] Note (AI): Jordan's main advice for leaders entering or changing organisations: surface the embedded social constructs before trying to change behaviour. Jordan Ludlow, guest [26:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1618): > I think for me, the key take out from my research, and, and, and I've gone through the shared leadership and, and, and other elements, but for me, the key take out from my research was we need to understand that organizations have this history, this, this incredible memory that sits underneath them, and As leaders, we need to really understand, especially if you're moving between organizations or you go into a, a, a new organization, is that there are these unwritten rules which are firmly, firmly embedded, and no one talks about them. But when you come in and you want to try and initiate change or, or get people to perform their duties in a different way or think differently, that We mustn't negate the power of that underlying, those social constructs that sit underneath the organization, and only through really trying to make them explicit will we start to understand them, as I, as I did now. When I presented my research, no one really thought about, about these things when I presented them back, and they were so, there were such common threads between the fourteen interviewees, from the people that had been there for twenty years to the people that had been there for two years, were seeing exactly the same things, and they were seeing so many positives about them, but they were also seeing in what context there can be negatives about them, and that would really be, that, that was my key learning and the key take out from this is don't forget about those social constructs and their ability to actually influence what people perceive as what type of action they can take and their capacity for action, because they can be very limiting. ### Quotes > "the knowledge can't simply be in the head of the leader." > — Jordan Ludlow, guest · [03:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=239) > "understanding that as the leader, you don't have to have all the answers." > — Jordan Ludlow, guest · [04:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=245) > "it creates an environment where you are able to actually have both high control and high autonomy." > — Jordan Ludlow, guest · [08:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=504) > "people really are looking to make a meaningful impact in their daily work." > — Jordan Ludlow, guest · [17:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1021) > "the whole message we have at the moment is that we are culture. I am culture, okay?" > — Petro du Pisani, host · [24:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1482) > "someone that, that Might actually be the least likely to come up with an unbelievable answer and to give me a different perspective and to add value to a conversation, can add value to a conversation simply because they're looking at it from a completely different lens." > — Jordan Ludlow, guest · [26:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1580) > "there are these unwritten rules which are firmly, firmly embedded, and no one talks about them." > — Jordan Ludlow, guest · [27:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1649) > "don't forget about those social constructs and their ability to actually influence what people perceive as what type of action they can take and their capacity for action, because they can be very limiting." > — Jordan Ludlow, guest · [28:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1708) ### Claims > "I studied a, a BSc, and I completed a BSc honors in biochemistry a long time ago. I've since gone on to study a postgraduate diploma in business administration at the UCT," > — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: Career background · [01:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=71) > "I started with British American Tobacco, post studies. I've worked in, for them for ten years in consumer marketing, product development, and blending, and various trade roles." > — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: Career background · [01:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=85) > "And I am now working for a retail, specialist retail asset management business operating in the FMCG logistics industry. I'm currently the MD at that business," > — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: Career background · [01:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=97) > "I wasn't looking Or something that would enhance my own technical capabilities or competencies, I was looking for a far more holistic learning experience." > — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: EMBA journey · [01:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=119) > "Things like complexity theory, you know, really helped me to understand that there are such complex and emergent challenges for today's organizations that the, the knowledge can't simply be in the head of the leader." > — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: Complexity and uncertainty · [03:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=226) > "And that was quite liberating for me, understanding that as the leader, you don't have to have all the answers. And what that did for me, it paved the way to firstly be a lot more comfortable with that uncertainty and have a little bit more patience to allow patterns to emerge as I sort of probe things." > — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: Complexity and uncertainty · [04:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=243) > "also did a BSc in, in geophysics and mathematics. And so I come from a very quantitative background in analyzing data and finding, patterns in the data and that sort of thing." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: EMBA journey · [04:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=295) > "It was really around trying to understand how I can allow people to take some of that operational noise out of my day-to-day role so that I can focus on some of my key objectives, and, and really how do I empower them to actually do that." > — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: Human agency and autonomy · [06:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=366) > "and, and often the success of those organizations is determined by the speed between when they detect an, an adjustment or a change, and the response that they take. And that response It's very difficult to get quickly if you are running an old traditional hierarchical model of working." > — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: Complexity and uncertainty · [06:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=409) > "So my title really was towards the, a theory of, for improved strategic coherence, and it, it was about exploring the role of leadership practice and the social constructs of organizational culture and habitus." > — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: Strategic coherence · [07:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=448) > "he spoke about how you can progress, how you want to try and move organizations from first-order organization, which is like a command and control where you design the outcome, to second-order organization where you rather design the rules of the transformation." > — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: Shared leadership · [08:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=481) > "it creates an environment where you are able to actually have both high control and high autonomy. And that control is not in the, is not in the form of traditional control. It's really in the form of getting alignment between the parts," > — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: Human agency and autonomy · [08:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=504) > "those social constructs, things like organizational culture and habitus, which is, which is from Bordeaux's theory of practice, is really around what type of socially acceptable ways of acting and doing things," > — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: Social constructs and culture · [09:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=592) > "I followed a sort of a mixed methodology. The foundation of my research methodology was action research. I did a two-stage action research." > — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: EMBA research methodology · [10:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=641) > "I did fourteen interviews of about hour and a half, and then I, I did a effectively a, a series of second interviews with, with the executive leadership." > — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: EMBA research methodology · [11:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=695) > "the type of grounded theory that I used was constructivist grounded theory, because I really wanted to try and explore each of the individual's perspectives on the phenomenon that I was studying," > — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: EMBA research methodology · [12:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=728) > "So shared leadership really, for me, the three key ways or antecedents to shared leadership, which came out of my research, was how do you create shared purpose? So team members having similar meanings of the team's primary objectives and focusing on collective goals." > — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: Shared leadership · [13:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=812) > "How do you enable social support where team members provide emotional and psychological strength to one another, which improves the cooperation and a shared sense of responsibility for those outcomes? And then the third one is voice, the degree to which a team's members have input into how the team carries out its purpose." > — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: Shared leadership · [13:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=833) > "People were talking around characteristics like high energy, entrepreneurial, and impulsive culture, a culture of subjective decision-making, a culture dominated by informal and unstructured communication networks, and then very strong power dynamics in what people term proximity, how close you were to leaders or how well you engaged with leaders." > — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: Social constructs and culture · [15:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=904) > "and they were making decisions which they didn't entirely think they should be making, but purely on the back of, of the pressure of these social constructs, which were sort of just un, un, underneath, sitting underneath their action, and just slowly sort of manipulating how people behaved." > — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: Social constructs and culture · [15:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=947) > "And enabling that individual agency is really around Creating meaningful autonomy. And it's a crucial element for high-performing organizations, where we, we rely on individuals or group of individuals to be able to take action on a day-to-day basis" > — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: Human agency and autonomy · [17:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1025) > "there's a significant chance that a more shared, distributed leadership will have much better outcomes. And that's really around the, the level of interdependence in the work that you're doing. The degree to which it requires creativity and the complexity of that work." > — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: Shared leadership · [18:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1119) > "how do you create strategic coherence, a mutual understanding of an organization's direction amongst multiple levels of an organization so that people can make the right decisions in their day-to-day work" > — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: Strategic coherence · [19:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1150) > "and Chia and Holt talk about a concept which they call relational dwelling. Now, from my background, I was very much always focused on this, this building and planning, as opposed to the actual dwelling in a situation and the fact that you actually have to make decisions in the flow of practice," > — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: Shared leadership · [20:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1211) > "because in a, a, a emergency situation, everybody needs to know, you know, what to do and how to respond and, and who's the leader and, and who's going to take control. But I think to get productive, meaningful work done, everybody in the team needs to have a voice, and they have to be able to speak up," > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Shared leadership · [21:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1308) > "some of the key elements, and they're quite simple, really, is, is around just alignment and access to information, which we, we often forget about. It's, it's about creating a space for debate, building shared understanding of the context and what we're going after," > — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: Strategy practice · [23:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1392) > "We had a very much a, a ad hoc way of practicing strategy, and we've, we've now got into quarterly, monthly, weekly meeting rhythms, key stakeholders, granular OKRs, absolute accountability, full access to transparent information." > — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: Strategy practice · [23:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1429) > "we're now into the fourth quarter that we're running it, or third quarter that we're running it, and I think I am seeing some significant improvements just in terms of the collaboration, the ownership, and a sense of purpose amongst the team." > — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: Strategy practice · [24:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1453) > "Every single person in the organization has a role to play in the culture of the organization. And you have to find a way to exhibit the culture that you want to see in the organization." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Social constructs and culture · [24:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1491) > "coming from a place where I felt I wasn't doing my job, if someone asked me a question and I didn't quite know it, I'm now very, very comfortable with the fact that I don't need to have all the answers." > — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: Complexity and uncertainty · [26:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1567) > "there are these unwritten rules which are firmly, firmly embedded, and no one talks about them. But when you come in and you want to try and initiate change or, or get people to perform their duties in a different way or think differently, that We mustn't negate the power of that underlying, those social constructs that sit underneath the organization," > — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: Social constructs and culture · [27:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1649) > "there were such common threads between the fourteen interviewees, from the people that had been there for twenty years to the people that had been there for two years, were seeing exactly the same things," > — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: Social constructs and culture · [28:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1686) > "If you want to change the story, you have to understand, firstly, the stories we've been telling to ourselves over the last couple of years and through the formation of the company to be able to change the story later on." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Social constructs and culture · [28:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1734) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) A learning journey conversation with a fellow EMBA student. I recently completed an Executive MBA through the University of Cape Town's Graduate School of Business. With classes moving on-line (in 2020 and 2021) due to the covid-19 pandemic there wasn't enough time (for me) to connect with fellow students and hear about their research projects. I decided to interview my fellow students to learn about their research. In this podcast I speak to Jordan Ludlow, who is the managing director of Tradereach. In his research project Jordan explored the role of shared leadership to improve the flow of strategy development and execution. In enabling strategic coherence he had three major findings: 1. Shifting from command-and-control to shared leadership; 2. Understanding social constructs (i.e. the underlying story of an organisation); 3. The importance of human agency. Reach out to Jordan Ludlow on LinkedIn · Learn more about UCT's EMBA · Connect with Petro · Solid Gold Podcasts ## #021 The impact of remote work on organisational design | Desereé van den Berg - Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/021-the-impact-of-remote-work-on/ - Date: 2022-06-21 (as at 2022-06-21) - Guest: Desereé van den Berg - Host: Petro du Pisani - Themes: Remote work and organisational design, Strategy and organisational design, Hybrid work models, Executive MBA learning journey, Research methodology, Personal leadership transformation - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1195676 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Desereé van den Berg - HR Executive · RBS - HR practitioner for over fifteen years, starting in a call center and moving into learning and development and then mainstream HR; completed an Executive MBA at UCT's Graduate School of Business researching remote work and organisation design. In their own words: > "So I'm a HR practitioner by my day job. Been doing it for many, many years. I think over fifteen years now, started to, my career started with a headset on my head in a call center and moved through the ranks through into learning and development and then into mainstream HR." [02:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=125) > "And really have been working in all areas of the HR value chain, in various roles and currently in an executive leadership role." [02:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=146) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) The host, a fellow UCT GSB Executive MBA graduate, talks with Desereé van den Berg, an HR executive, about her EMBA research into how remote work affects organisational design. She explains why she chose the topic after moving her company's offices home during COVID, her constructivist grounded theory method and twelve interviews, and her findings: organisational design is widely misunderstood, is inseparable from strategy, and remote work decisions are being pushed down to HR and IT rather than made strategically. She also describes how she applies this at work and how the EMBA changed her thinking and habits. **Key ideas** - Desereé argues organisational design is much more than an organogram and touches every part of the organisation, yet even practitioners in her study were unsure what it meant. ([10:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=634) [11:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=701) [11:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=701) [12:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=734)) - She holds that organisational design and strategy are so interconnected that one cannot stand without the other. ([10:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=634) [12:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=765) [12:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=765)) - She argues remote work is a disruptive decision, like expanding into a new region, that must be made at a strategic level rather than pushed down to HR and IT. ([13:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=782) [13:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=835) [14:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=872) [14:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=872)) - She says organisations are not making clear decisions about remote work post-pandemic, and the host adds that not deciding leaves people to interpret it for themselves. ([13:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=807) [20:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1204)) - She advises deliberate hybrid design: deciding who needs to be together and when, rather than letting people pick two or three remote days. ([16:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=979) [17:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1047) [17:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1061)) - She sees knee-jerk return-to-office mandates as the easier decision, lacking rationality and likely to hurt organisations long term. ([20:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1230) [20:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1233) [21:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1299)) - She says remote work is not new; requests for flexibility date back decades, and ignoring them reflects weak strategic capability. ([13:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=790) [14:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=894)) **Designing a fit-for-purpose remote work model** ([19:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1154) [19:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1158)) 1. Understand the context of your own organisation and the environment in which it operates. 2. Look at where your organisation is in its journey and what its strategy is at that point. 3. Design something fit for purpose for your particular organisation rather than a cookie-cutter model. **Lessons** - According to Desereé, remote and hybrid work decisions belong at a strategic level, not delegated to HR or IT as operational tasks. ([13:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=835) [14:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=872)) - Desereé advises that hybrid arrangements should be designed around who needs to be together and when, not a fixed choice of remote days. ([17:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1047) [17:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1061)) - She warns that one change in an organisation ripples through the whole system, so systems thinking is needed to see why strategy fails. ([15:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=928)) - She argues there is no single remote work model; each organisation must design for its own context and strategy. ([19:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1154) [19:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1158)) - The guest closes by urging leaders to stay open to unlearning and relearning and to keep listening to others' stories. ([26:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1582) [26:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1592)) **Who it's for:** HR practitioners, organisational design specialists and executives deciding on remote or hybrid work policies, and prospective or current Executive MBA students interested in UCT GSB's approach and research methods such as grounded theory. **Facts stated in the episode** - Desereé says she has worked in HR for over fifteen years, starting in a call center. ([02:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=125)) - She deployed her company's Cape Town and Joburg offices home within about two to three days at the start of COVID. ([05:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=342)) - Her research involved twelve one-hour interviews and close to 1,500 codes. ([09:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=577)) - She used constructivist grounded theory as her research method. ([08:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=524)) - The host notes Elon Musk said his executives must return to work for 40 hours. ([20:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1239)) - The host's company uses requisite organisation, based on levels of work and accountabilities. ([18:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1082)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: How does remote work affect organisational design?** A: Desereé found remote or hybrid work affects strategy, processes and systems, IT, and capabilities such as learning and development, leadership and talent, touching the whole organisation. ([10:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=634) [11:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=664)) **Q: Who should decide a company's remote work policy?** A: Desereé argues it should be a strategic-level decision, comparing it to expanding the business into a new region, rather than being pushed down to HR teams and IT. ([13:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=782) [13:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=835) [14:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=872)) **Q: Is organisational design just the org chart?** A: No. Desereé says many people see it as an organogram, but it is far more complex and touches every part of the organisation; an organogram is at most one outcome. ([11:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=701) [11:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=701)) **Q: How should a hybrid work schedule be designed?** A: Desereé says be deliberate: decide who needs to be together at what times, physically or online, rather than simply letting people pick two or three remote days. ([17:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1047) [17:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1061)) **Q: Are return-to-office mandates a good idea?** A: Desereé calls blanket return-to-office orders knee-jerk and the easier decision; without rationality behind them, she says, they will hurt organisations in the long run. ([20:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1230) [21:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1299)) **Q: What research method did Desereé use for her EMBA dissertation?** A: She used constructivist grounded theory, building theory from the data, because as a practitioner she could not remove herself from the process. She ran twelve one-hour interviews and worked through about 1,500 codes. ([08:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=509) [08:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=524) [09:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=553) [09:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=577)) **Q: What is different about the UCT Executive MBA?** A: Both speakers describe practical application instead of exams, position papers applied to work, and personal transformation practices such as meditation, mindfulness, reflection and journaling. ([03:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=180) [03:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=219) [04:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=272)) **Q: Is remote work a new idea?** A: Desereé says no: the literature goes back decades to when women entering the workplace asked for flexibility, but organisations ignored it. ([13:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=790)) ### Passage: Why she researched remote work and organisation design [05:29–06:52, 243 words] Note (AI): Shows how leading a two-to-three-day office move home during COVID shaped her research question about remote work's effect on the whole organisation. Desereé van den Berg, guest [05:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=329): > The world of remote work, do I need to say more than that? so I think, yeah, for us as a class, we, we sort of had that first two weeks together, and then we also had to, we, we, the COVID pandemic in South Africa and sort of in HR leadership, I was the one tasked to sort of deploy both our Cape Town and Joburg offices immediately home within, I think, two to three days, and suddenly we had to adjust to a complete remote world of work. So as a HR practitioner and a people practitioner, I mean, that was just for me, how can I not do something on remote work? so I started actually throughout the two years in my MBA journey with all my position papers, touching on something around remote work or where I saw in, when I did that, for example, viable systems modeling, when we did that paper, also saw the impact of what remote work has on, divisions and on parts of the organization. so that really intrigued me throughout the two-year process, in the middle of the pandemic. And doing all the reading around remote work and hybrid work models, and literature that started to come out about it and what organizations were really grappling with. And that's why I came up with my research topic is to understand how remote work impacts on how we design our organizations going forward post-pandemic. ### Passage: Choosing constructivist grounded theory and twelve interviews [08:29–09:54, 245 words] Note (AI): Explains the research method, why a practitioner-researcher chose it, and the scale of the data behind her findings. Desereé van den Berg, guest [08:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=509): > So I was very brave. I thought at the time maybe a bit stupid. So I tackled a research methodology that we didn't necessarily go into much depth, during the course, but I found it extremely exciting and, and such a rewarding experience. So I decided to do grounded theory, and in particularly constructivist grounded theory. So grounded theory is really about building theory from what emerges for you out of the data, but that that theory is grounded in, in the data and, and what you find during your research. But constructivist grounded theory, there's three types that I won't go into detail about, but I am particularly decided to go constructivist grounded theory by Cathy Chammas, in particularly because, because I'm a practitioner in the field and I work with people in remote work and strategy all the time, I felt that I couldn't remove myself completely from the process. And constructivist grounded theory, I think, recognizes the fact the researcher cannot completely Be removed, from the research process, and that worked quite well for me. Petro du Pisani, host [09:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=574): > So after you went through all of that, how many people did you interview? Desereé van den Berg, guest [09:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=577): > Yeah, so I interviewed twelve people, and yeah, you, you can appreciate, and I think fellow students will appreciate it, like I ended up with close to a thousand five hundred, I think, actually codes that I had to work through. so it was twelve one hour, one hour interviews that I conducted. ### Passage: Findings: organisational design misunderstood and tied to strategy [10:34–13:01, 424 words] Note (AI): Sets out her first findings: design is more than an organogram, practitioners lack clarity on it, and strategy and design are inseparable. Desereé van den Berg, guest [10:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=634): > My initial, when I went into it, what the preconceived idea was, is that I'm going to have this huge aha moment in terms of how remote work impacts on organizational design. So there's various frameworks and recipes, if I can call it that, out there in terms of organizational design. And I thought I was going to come out by saying, these are the sort of components of organizational design, and explicitly this is how remote work impacts on, on all of them. So that definitely did emerge in my paper. So I definitely got out of the paper holistically how remote or hybrid work impacts on strategy, how it impacts on processes and systems, how it impacts on IT, how it impacts on organizational capabilities like learning and development, like leadership, like talent. so all of that did come out in my paper, and I could elaborate on all of that. But I think at the end of the day, for me, my theory around it was quite surprising. The first one in particularly that stood out for me is the understanding of organizational design in organizations. A lot of people still see organizational design as an organogram. It's like people sitting in a room and we draw a picture on the board and, and we have to fill blocks. And it's much more complex than that. It really touches each and every single part of your organization. A organogram might be the end of it or one of the, or should be one of the outcomes, let me rather say that, but it's a much more complex. It touches every part of your organization. And there's a clear lack of understanding, not only in organizations by leadership about it, but also funnily enough, even in the practitioners that was took part in my study, a lot of them asked me, so what do you mean when you ask me about organizational design? Which, which was quite surprising. I, I thought practitioners knew automatically. So that was a surprising finding. so there's definitely a lack of teaching in educational, in academic programs on organizational design. And organizational design and strategy was the second thing. They are so interconnected that I actually wrote a part in my paper to say, for me, organizational design is strategy and strategy is organizational design. The one doesn't, cannot stand without the other one. They are so interconnected. You can't think about strategy without thinking about organizational design, and you can't think design without thinking of strategy. ### Passage: Findings: remote work decisions made at the wrong level [13:02–15:42, 458 words] Note (AI): Contains her core argument and metaphor that remote work is a strategic expansion decision, plus gaps in strategic and systems-thinking capability. Desereé van den Berg, guest [13:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=782): > Then another finding, maybe more towards in particularly remote work, is at that stage we were two years post the pandemic. Remote work is most definitely not a new concept. If you go back in literature and you search, it goes back to when women started entering the workplace decades ago, and they started to ask for work flexibility. But we sort of ignore it, and we don't action it. So there's no, no clear and concise decision-making that organizations are making on remote work post the pandemic. Government used to dictate to us, everybody must go home now, or you can bring a certain part of your workforce back to the office. And now suddenly that, that instruction is no longer there forced by government, organizations struggles to make actual decision about it. And then another finding was where organizations are making decisions about it, they're making it on the wrong level. They're pushing it down to HR teams, for example, and say you have to deploy people home and you have to put a new performance management system in place, and IT must make sure they're all connected. It's such a disruptor that you have to make that decision on a strategic level. I like to use the metaphor when I do talks on it. If you as an organization decide to expand your business into Africa or even into a different province, you make that decision on a strategic level. And then you strategically look at how you're going to execute that across your organization. And you talk about all parts in your organization when you execute that strategy. If you think of hybrid or remote work, is you're actually making a decision to expand your business into people's homes or coffee shops or satellite offices. So how can you not make such a disruptive decision, not on a strategic level? So that's definitely lacking. And then also throughout the whole process, and then maybe the last key finding for me was there's still the lack of strategic capabilities we have in our organizations, because we are ignoring these dots on the horizon. We're ignoring the workers asking for flexible working arrangements and, and to have more balance. So that strategic capability is clearly lacking, and then the organizational design or, maybe a, a more common word that's also used is systems thinking and design thinking that's lacking in our organizations, because we don't understand how things interconnect and interrelate to one another. So we make decisions somewhere in our businesses, or in our organization, and that one change has got a ripple effect throughout the organization, and then we struggle to understand why we're not achieving our objectives or why our strategy is failing. ### Passage: Designing hybrid engagement deliberately, not by picking days [16:19–17:54, 295 words] Note (AI): The host's example of online training that did not stick, answered with the guest's practical advice on deliberate hybrid design. Petro du Pisani, host [16:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=979): > It's about how do you work effectively together when some people are from home and some people are, are not. And one of the things that I saw, because we had to very quickly, give a lot of our training online, so we had to very, and then people would not pay attention. a lot of that training has not stuck. You know, two years later, we go, well, remember we did this training two years ago, and they go, they don't even remember being in the class, you know, even though there's a recording of them being in the class, or the little bubble being in the class, at least. people are not remembering that they actually were in the class. I think it's got a huge impact on that. So, for me, it's like, how do we make sure that people effectively Form part of a team while they're sitting at home, you know, how do we make sure that that happens? Do you have any thoughts around that? Desereé van den Berg, guest [17:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1026): > For me, it's again a design discussion and understanding how simply doing training and online is not going to be a solution for delivering training, for example, or just having Teams meetings now online or having brainstorming sessions online is going to foster engagement and that collaboration. As you have to be deliberate in your design. You have to be deliberate if you do hybrid, for example. You have to say who needs to be together at what times physically or online and bring that into your design. You can't just simply say pick two days or pick three days when you want to work remote. That has to be done creatively and purposefully through design in how you, how you design those engagements. ### Passage: How the EMBA changed her thinking and living [22:32–24:56, 397 words] Note (AI): The guest describes concrete changes in problem-solving, boundary setting and daily reflection that she attributes to the programme. Petro du Pisani, host [22:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1352): > So now that you've gone through all of this work and everything, and, and this podcast is called On Change, so it's about, how you as a person has changed. So how's this work and this, this studying, and EMBA actually changed the way you think and the way that you work? Desereé van den Berg, guest [22:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1370): > key parts for me, again, it's really a truly transformational journey. It's, it's not a cliche, it's not a marketing gimme on the, on the, on UCT's side. My thinking has changed completely in how I, how I look at an organizational challenge or a problem in the workplace. I think as executives, we sometimes think that we've got the answer and that we know most of it, but going through the various models and thinking processes and multiple perspectives and doing the research, I ask different questions when I get a problem. And I look at it more holistically. And I'm still surprised sometimes with what the answer is at the end of the day to a problem. And I think the position papers and even the dissertation has taught us that quite nicely, as you, you go into it thinking you're going to know what the outcome is, but then once you've gone through the process, you are surprised by the end result. And the same apply for me and how I approach problems and challenges in the workplace, is not to have that immediate preconceived idea of what the solution to a challenge is. So that was the first thing. And then the other thing is maybe the softer leadership things. I live better or I live more with intent. I do intentional living. My boundary setting, is much, very much different to what it used to be before. I'm mindful of what I allow and what I don't allow, and what I give my time and my energy to than what I used to before. I'm much more grounded in my thinking and The reflection still as a daily practice allows me to change my behavior as I reflect on things that's happened during the day. so truly a transformational journey, not only from a practical skill leadership, or management competence perspective and problem solving, but also how I show up every day and how I am every day in how I go about life and how I go about things. ### Quotes > "if I want to understand something, maybe I should write a position paper about it and then I'll understand it better." > — Petro du Pisani, host · [04:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=291) > "A lot of people still see organizational design as an organogram." > — Desereé van den Berg, guest · [11:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=701) > "for me, organizational design is strategy and strategy is organizational design." > — Desereé van den Berg, guest · [12:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=765) > "If you think of hybrid or remote work, is you're actually making a decision to expand your business into people's homes or coffee shops or satellite offices." > — Desereé van den Berg, guest · [14:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=872) > "remote work, I like to call it, is not a cookie-cutter approach." > — Desereé van den Berg, guest · [19:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1154) > "Everybody must come back to the office. It's the easier decision to make." > — Desereé van den Berg, guest · [20:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1233) > "It's, it's not a cliche, it's not a marketing gimme on the, on the, on UCT's side." > — Desereé van den Berg, guest · [22:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1374) > "we read a paper on, don't simplify, complexify." > — Petro du Pisani, host · [25:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1502) > "We don't know it all, even if we've been doing it for many years, keep on learning, keep on listening to other people's stories," > — Desereé van den Berg, guest · [26:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1592) ### Claims > "I was looking for that something special, more in terms of personal transformation, personal leadership, and something more purposeful that will contribute to my growth journey and for me to give something back" > — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Executive MBA learning journey · [01:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=84) > "I think there's a big lack in ethical leadership development and for us to, to look at bigger issues. And for me, the Executive MBA at UCT really spoke to that transformational leadership journey." > — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Executive MBA learning journey · [01:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=107) > "So I'm a HR practitioner by my day job. Been doing it for many, many years. I think over fifteen years now, started to, my career started with a headset on my head in a call center and moved through the ranks through into learning and development and then into mainstream HR." > — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Guest background · [02:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=125) > "And really have been working in all areas of the HR value chain, in various roles and currently in an executive leadership role." > — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Guest background · [02:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=146) > "It's learning tools, it's learning techniques, it's learning methodologies, it's learning different models, and then having to go and practically apply it in your work environment. So that for me was exceptionally valuable." > — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Executive MBA learning journey · [03:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=180) > "things like meditation, mindfulness, reflections, journaling about executive wellbeing and leadership wellbeing, and actually practicing those skills that we learn and not just going on a course or reading a book about it, but that we were forced to practice those skills." > — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Personal leadership transformation · [03:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=219) > "if you've written a hundred page documents about a specific topic and applied it to your work, you're never going to forget those principles." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Executive MBA learning journey · [04:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=272) > "the COVID pandemic in South Africa and sort of in HR leadership, I was the one tasked to sort of deploy both our Cape Town and Joburg offices immediately home within, I think, two to three days, and suddenly we had to adjust to a complete remote world of work." > — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Remote work and organisational design · [05:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=342) > "And that's why I came up with my research topic is to understand how remote work impacts on how we design our organizations going forward post-pandemic." > — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Remote work and organisational design · [06:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=403) > "But I was finding a gap or there was a, a need for me to read more about remote work holistically, and to almost find a, a paper or a piece of work detached on remote work and the whole organization, and not just pieces of an organization." > — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Remote work and organisational design · [07:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=477) > "So I decided to do grounded theory, and in particularly constructivist grounded theory. So grounded theory is really about building theory from what emerges for you out of the data, but that that theory is grounded in, in the data and, and what you find during your research." > — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Research methodology · [08:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=524) > "because I'm a practitioner in the field and I work with people in remote work and strategy all the time, I felt that I couldn't remove myself completely from the process." > — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Research methodology · [09:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=553) > "so I interviewed twelve people, and yeah, you, you can appreciate, and I think fellow students will appreciate it, like I ended up with close to a thousand five hundred, I think, actually codes that I had to work through." > — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Research methodology · [09:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=577) > "so I did phenomenology. and there you really have to try and figure out the feeling behind what the person is telling you. You have to really go deep and you have to almost analyze each interview a couple of times to get to what the person is actually meaning." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Research methodology · [10:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=601) > "So I definitely got out of the paper holistically how remote or hybrid work impacts on strategy, how it impacts on processes and systems, how it impacts on IT, how it impacts on organizational capabilities like learning and development, like leadership, like talent." > — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Remote work and organisational design · [11:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=664) > "A lot of people still see organizational design as an organogram. It's like people sitting in a room and we draw a picture on the board and, and we have to fill blocks. And it's much more complex than that. It really touches each and every single part of your organization." > — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Remote work and organisational design · [11:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=701) > "even in the practitioners that was took part in my study, a lot of them asked me, so what do you mean when you ask me about organizational design? Which, which was quite surprising." > — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Remote work and organisational design · [12:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=734) > "so there's definitely a lack of teaching in educational, in academic programs on organizational design." > — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Remote work and organisational design · [12:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=750) > "for me, organizational design is strategy and strategy is organizational design. The one doesn't, cannot stand without the other one. They are so interconnected." > — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Strategy and organisational design · [12:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=765) > "Remote work is most definitely not a new concept. If you go back in literature and you search, it goes back to when women started entering the workplace decades ago, and they started to ask for work flexibility." > — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Hybrid work models · [13:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=790) > "So there's no, no clear and concise decision-making that organizations are making on remote work post the pandemic." > — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Strategy and organisational design · [13:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=807) > "They're pushing it down to HR teams, for example, and say you have to deploy people home and you have to put a new performance management system in place, and IT must make sure they're all connected. It's such a disruptor that you have to make that decision on a strategic level." > — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Strategy and organisational design · [13:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=835) > "If you think of hybrid or remote work, is you're actually making a decision to expand your business into people's homes or coffee shops or satellite offices. So how can you not make such a disruptive decision, not on a strategic level?" > — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Strategy and organisational design · [14:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=872) > "there's still the lack of strategic capabilities we have in our organizations, because we are ignoring these dots on the horizon. We're ignoring the workers asking for flexible working arrangements and, and to have more balance." > — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Strategy and organisational design · [14:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=894) > "So we make decisions somewhere in our businesses, or in our organization, and that one change has got a ripple effect throughout the organization, and then we struggle to understand why we're not achieving our objectives or why our strategy is failing." > — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Remote work and organisational design · [15:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=928) > "we, we had had a sort of a trial run for, for working remotely about a year before the pandemic actually, struck, because we were based in the center of Johannesburg." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Hybrid work models · [15:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=948) > "But it's not, for me, it's not about IT, okay? It's not about the ability to be able to connect from home. It's not about that. It's about how do you work effectively together when some people are from home and some people are, are not." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Hybrid work models · [16:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=972) > "a lot of that training has not stuck. You know, two years later, we go, well, remember we did this training two years ago, and they go, they don't even remember being in the class," > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Hybrid work models · [16:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=994) > "As you have to be deliberate in your design. You have to be deliberate if you do hybrid, for example. You have to say who needs to be together at what times physically or online and bring that into your design." > — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Hybrid work models · [17:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1047) > "You can't just simply say pick two days or pick three days when you want to work remote. That has to be done creatively and purposefully through design in how you, how you design those engagements." > — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Hybrid work models · [17:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1061) > "In our company, we use requisite organizations, so it's basically levels of work and, the correct accountabilities and capabilities at the correct level of work." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Remote work and organisational design · [18:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1082) > "You can't apply the same model to each and every single organization. You have to understand the context of your own organization and the environment in which it operates, and then look at also where your organization is in their journey and what the strategy is at that given point in time, and then design something that's fit for purpose for your particular organization." > — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Strategy and organisational design · [19:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1158) > "It's almost like you're effectively, by not making a decision, you're just actually allowing people to interpret for themselves what it means." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Strategy and organisational design · [20:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1204) > "So we see all these knee-jerk reactions happening now. Everybody must come back to the office. It's the easier decision to make." > — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Hybrid work models · [20:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1230) > "just recently in the news, we saw Elon Musk saying that all his executives must come back to work and they have to spend 40 hours at work. or basically they get promoted out of the company, you know?" > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Hybrid work models · [20:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1239) > "The, the power dynamics in organizations have shifted. I think maybe it's skewed again a little bit too much towards the employee side now versus before it was completely on the organization having that power dynamic." > — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Hybrid work models · [21:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1281) > "But I think just going back and saying, you know, you're out of here if you're not back in the office, and there's no, there's no rationality behind that decision-making, it's going to hurt you in the long run." > — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Hybrid work models · [21:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1299) > "for me, it's the, the online conversations, the quality isn't as good because you've got these, these little thirty minutes meetings in your diary for the entire, you don't get a chance to just chat." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Hybrid work models · [22:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1321) > "I ask different questions when I get a problem. And I look at it more holistically. And I'm still surprised sometimes with what the answer is at the end of the day to a problem." > — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Personal leadership transformation · [23:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1406) > "I live better or I live more with intent. I do intentional living. My boundary setting, is much, very much different to what it used to be before." > — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Personal leadership transformation · [24:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1446) > "one of the papers that stuck with me was we read a paper on, don't simplify, complexify. So you're always trying to think about what additional angles can I bring to this?" > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Personal leadership transformation · [25:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1501) > "our responsibility as true leaders today is so much more than just making sure our organization makes profits." > — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Personal leadership transformation · [25:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1549) > "For me, it's just about leaderships opening their hearts and their minds and actively pursuing new knowledge and be open to unlearn and relearn." > — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Personal leadership transformation · [26:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1582) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) A learning journey conversation with a fellow EMBA student. Over the past two years (2020-2021) we have been working towards our Executive MBAs through the University of Cape Town's Graduate Business School. With classes moving on-line due to the covid-19 pandemic there wasn't enough time (for me) to connect with fellow students and hear about their research projects. I decided to interview my fellow students to hear about their research. In this podcast I speak to Desereé van den Berg (RBS | HR Executive) about her research project which explored the link between remote work and organisation design. Remote or hybrid work is a hot topic as most of us have experienced the shift to remote work over the past couple of years, a trend accelerated due to the covid-19 pandemic. Desereé tells me more about why she chose this topic, how she did the research and what her major findings were. She also shares how this research changed her and the way she has applied her research in her workplace. Desereé found that a company's strategy is so intertwined with organisational design that that it is imperative that a strategic decision needs to be made about remote work at the correct level of the organisation. Find out more about the UCT GSB EMBA · Connect with Desereé van den Berg · Connect with Petro · Solid Gold Podcasts ## #019 Gordon Wilson | Purpose as a driver for human behaviour - Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/019-purpose-as-a-driver-for-human/ - Date: 2022-04-04 (as at 2022-04-04) - Guest: Gordon Wilson - Host: Petro du Pisani - Themes: Purpose as a driver of behaviour, Executive MBA experience, Research methodology, Profit and purpose balance, Leadership and purpose, Putting purpose into practice, Personal transformation - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1171404 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Gordon Wilson - Achievement Awards Group · Cape Town - Grew up in Durban and moved to the Cape about 10 years ago; works in the human performance improvement industry at Achievement Awards Group; UCT EMBA student whose research focused on purpose as a driver for human behaviour. In their own words: > "I grew up in Durban most of my life there and, moved down to the Cape about 10 years ago in pursuit of, corporate challenges, which is where I find myself today." [01:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=64) > "I work in the human performance improvement industry for a company called Achievement Awards Group. Where we, we bring the, the science and the art of, business and people performance together." [01:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=97) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Host Petro talks with fellow UCT EMBA student Gordon Wilson, who works in the human performance improvement industry at Achievement Awards Group, about his research project on purpose as a driver of human behaviour from a leadership perspective. Gordon explains how the topic emerged from a business model innovation session, the interpretivist action research approach he used with 24 leader interviews, his four major findings, and practical actions at organisational, leader and HR levels. He also reflects on how the EMBA changed his way of working and recommends the programme. **Key ideas** - Gordon's research found purpose is important, citing literature linking purposeful people to better health, happiness, longevity and even higher earnings. ([18:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1090) [19:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1172) [19:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1182)) - Gordon argues purpose is an intrinsic motivator: the drive to serve something bigger than oneself is a powerful motivational force. ([20:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1207)) - Gordon holds that organisations can and should focus on profit and purpose equally, and that profit-only firms may hold themselves back. ([17:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1061) [20:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1255) [21:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1281) [21:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1314)) - Gordon frames leaders as stewards of an organisation's purpose, responsible for creating an environment where people's psychological needs can flourish. ([22:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1351) [22:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1367)) - From his 24 interviews, Gordon found personal and corporate purpose do not always align; alignment may exist at a functional level instead. ([25:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1507) [26:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1568)) - Gordon proposes putting purpose into practice at three levels: organisational, leader and HR. ([27:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1626) [27:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1629) [27:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1655) [27:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1677) [30:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1855)) - Gordon describes the research itself acting as a change process in his company, leading his CEO to request a purpose communication. ([31:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1919) [32:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1943)) **Putting purpose into practice at three levels** ([27:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1626) [27:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1629) [27:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1655) [27:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1677) [29:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1755) [29:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1790) [30:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1807) [30:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1855)) 1. Organisational level: elevate purpose to the same level as profit and craft a purpose statement that resonates and engages. 2. Organisational level: secure buy-in at board and executive level and align strategy with purpose. 3. Leader level: build emotional connection with purpose, show people they matter and how they fit the bigger picture. 4. Leader level: lead by example through behavioural integrity and practise strategy with authenticity. 5. HR level: revisit hiring, recruiting, development plans and career paths to align with purpose and values. **Lessons** - Gordon advises that purpose will not take hold among staff unless board and executive leaders genuinely buy into it. ([27:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1677) [28:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1682)) - Gordon suggests leaders make people feel seen, heard and understood, and show how daily tasks connect to the bigger picture. ([29:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1755) [29:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1790)) - Petro's example shows a company purpose phrased so each employee can test their own work against it. ([23:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1432)) - Gordon's supervisor advised starting research without a fixed answer and seeing where it leads. ([17:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1031)) - Gordon says he now carves out time to improve himself and avoids the always-busy hamster wheel. ([33:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=2000) [34:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=2080) [34:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=2091) [35:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=2108)) **Who it's for:** Leaders, HR practitioners and culture or change professionals interested in making organisational purpose practical, and prospective Executive MBA students curious about the UCT GSB research experience. **Facts stated in the episode** - Gordon interviewed twenty-four leaders at his organisation for his research. ([25:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1507)) - Gordon moved from Durban to the Cape about 10 years ago. ([01:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=64)) - Gordon's EMBA cohort had about seventy other people. ([36:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=2177)) - Petro's mining company states its purpose as reimagining mining to improve people's lives. ([23:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1432)) - Gordon's action proposals cover three levels: organisational, leader and human resources. ([27:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1629)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Does having a sense of purpose actually make people healthier or more successful?** A: Gordon says the literature he reviewed indicates purposeful people are healthier, happier, live longer, fulfil their potential and can earn more, citing one study where purpose-driven people earned more a decade later. ([19:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1172) [19:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1182)) **Q: Should companies prioritise profit or purpose?** A: Gordon argues both, equally: profit enables an organisation to expand its purpose, and companies focusing solely on profit may be holding themselves back. ([21:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1281) [21:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1314)) **Q: Do employees need to share their company's purpose to find meaning at work?** A: Gordon's interviews with 24 leaders suggested not always; people may find personal purpose in their work with alignment only at a functional level. Leaders should still try, and ensure people leave better off. ([25:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1507) [26:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1568)) **Q: How can an organisation turn a purpose statement into daily practice?** A: Gordon proposes actions at organisational, leader and HR levels, including board buy-in, aligning strategy, leaders showing people they matter, behavioural integrity, and aligning hiring and career paths. ([27:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1626) [27:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1629) [27:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1655) [27:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1677) [30:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1855)) **Q: What research method suits studying something subjective like purpose?** A: Gordon used interpretivism, action research to generate data and thematic analysis to surface patterns, valuing that action research let him be participant and observer. ([12:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=778) [13:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=838) [14:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=869) [16:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=973)) **Q: What role do leaders play in organisational purpose?** A: Gordon describes leaders as stewards of purpose who create the environment where people's psychological needs flourish, lead by example and help people see how they fit the bigger picture. ([22:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1351) [22:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1367) [29:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1790) [30:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1807)) **Q: Is the UCT Executive MBA worth doing?** A: Gordon says absolutely, recommending it despite the intensity; he values its focus on viewing the world through a different lens and on personal transformation. ([03:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=231) [05:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=300) [36:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=2177) [36:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=2212)) ### Passage: How purpose became Gordon's research topic [06:54–09:15, 441 words] Note (AI): Shows how a business model innovation session revealed a purpose problem in his organisation and led to a purpose-centric culture model and the research topic. Gordon Wilson, guest [06:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=414): > so into the good stuff. So let me start with the end in mind. So my title for my, my research project, ended up being Purpose as a Driver of Human Behavior, a Leadership Perspective. You know, there's a, a wonderful quote by George Bernard Shaw, where he said that this is the true joy in life, the being used for a purpose recognized by yourself as a mighty one. So for me personally, purpose has always resonated. You know, I've always felt that I'm part of something bigger than myself. felt that I'm here on this earth to make a positive difference in the lives of people. And, it was quite amazing, actually, in that purpose as a phenomenon started, started appearing, like, here and there in my position papers, especially in position paper four, which focused on business model innovation as integrative thinking practice. And you'll remember it well. I mean, we had to conduct those business model innovation sessions, and yeah, it was quite a nerve-wracking thing in the beginning, but it was in that, in that BMI session itself, you know, we were in the auditorium at my, at my office, and, we found that the problem we were actually trying to solve was, was one of purpose, and that the organization was not a purposeful or a purpose-driven organization. And it was quite a profound thing to, it was like a, a hard moment, almost. And it led to multiple questions, you know, and I started asking, all right, well, how do we activate our newly articulated purpose statement? Or, you know, how do we ensure that, that work is meaningful and that our people Or understand the meaning behind their work. And, you know, there was just so many questions, you know, like how do we nudge our people forward to act on our mission and our values, and, and how do we make sure that our purpose, you know, our corporate reason for existence is infused into, into every aspect of the business? So, yeah, it was, it was really thought-provoking stuff, and, you know, I don't want to get sidetracked on that position paper, but the output was a new purpose-centric model of organizational culture, which would shift an organization from, say, a hierarchical culture towards an, an entrepreneurial culture of, you know, purposeful action, putting people at the center, greater autonomy, and empowerment. So, yeah, I mean, I, I guess you, you might say that purpose grabbed my attention there, you know. Fast forward a, a few months later, and, I have my research topic, Purpose as a Driver of Human Behavior. ### Passage: Interpretivism, action research and thematic analysis [12:58–14:39, 298 words] Note (AI): Explains the research paradigm and methods chosen and why they suit a subjective phenomenon like purpose. Gordon Wilson, guest [12:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=778): > So, I mean, research methodology, I won't chat about it too much, but I mean, you'll remember from block five, in, in those two weeks, they just bombarded us with all these different types of approaches to our research, and it was, it was quite hectic, actually. You know, there was just so many different, these phrases getting thrown at us, and brief explanations, and, and like, I think I finished that period quite confused, actually. But in the end, and a bit of help with my supervisor, I, the, the research paradigm that I adopted was interpretivism, in that, and I'll quote, I'll quote Blakey here, interpretives, Interpretivists believe that social reality is the product of its inhabitants. It is a world interpreted by the meanings that people create and recreate as a necessary part of their daily life. So from a philosophical standpoint, this was perfect, you know, because purpose is a, is a social construct that people create their own meaning, you know, specifically to them, it's subjective of what purpose means to them. So back to my, my research methodology. So within this paradigm of interpretivism, I adopted action research to generate data and meaning about the phenomenon of purpose, and then I used thematic analysis to analyze the data, and, I I hadn't used thematic analysis before, so it was really interesting, and my supervisor, Dr. Jean Bolton, she suggested it, and it worked out really well. So thematic analysis is a whole coding process where you, you code all your, your data extracts from all your qualitative interviews, but this thematic analysis actually allows you to surface repeated patterns and connect the themes that are, that are pulling through from those patterns in the data. So it was a lot of fun. ### Passage: Findings one and two: purpose matters and motivates [18:10–20:28, 375 words] Note (AI): Sets out the first two research findings, including cited evidence linking purpose to health, longevity and earnings. Gordon Wilson, guest [18:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1090): > So there were multiple findings, and I was trying to think, you know, beforehand, knowing that we were going to chat, you know, how do I, how do I wrap them up? And I think I'll just chat about the four major outcomes that the research produced. So firstly, purpose is important. You know, that was my primary research question was, you know, is purpose important? What do we do with that knowledge? So the first major outcome was, was purpose is important. So as a reason for being, or a driving force, a guiding star, the reason why we exist, a central reference point, you know, or even that, that thing that gets you out of bed in the morning, you know, which, whichever way you look at it, purpose is important. So this phenomenon of purpose as a, as an aspirational, orientational driving force, a reason for being in, in service of a, of a cause much greater than oneself, you know, it was just overwhelmingly evident in the research, you know. In fact, My findings highlighted the correlation, as you mentioned right in the beginning, you know, the correlation between living a purposeful life and the associated positive psychological and physical well-being effects. It's pretty awesome, actually. There's many studies, and I worked through so many different works of literature and bodies of knowledge, you know, which indicate that purposeful people are healthier, they're happier, they tend to live longer, they tend to fulfill their potential, and they can even achieve and earn more. There was this one brilliant study that looked at purpose-driven people ten years apart versus non-purpose-driven people. They found that these guys actually earned more a decade later than people who weren't purpose-driven. So, I mean, there's so many studies, and there's starting to be more and more studies into purpose both at a corporate level as well as an academic level, which is fantastic. Secondly, so my second major finding was that purpose is an intrinsic motivator. So purpose as the, the underlying drive to do something because it is in service of something bigger than ourselves, or because it's interesting, or because it matters to us personally, that's an incredibly powerful motivational force for human beings. ### Passage: Findings three and four: profit balance and leaders' role [20:55–23:14, 399 words] Note (AI): Argues organisations should weigh profit and purpose equally and frames leaders as stewards of purpose. Gordon Wilson, guest [20:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1255): > The third major finding from my research was that organizations need to balance their focus. So, you know, you remember Milton, Milton Friedman, the economist back in the seventies, he said that, you know, the, the purpose of a business is to make profit, but, you know, that's not true anymore. Sure, purpose, I mean, businesses need profit, but purpose is so important, so organizations need to balance their focus. My research indicated that organizations can and should focus on both profit and purpose equally, you know, because profit actually is the primary driver which enables an organization to affect and expand its purpose in the wider ecology in society. So it really is a, a both-and situation. You know, it's, organizations can focus on both. They can and they should. What is even more interesting, actually, is that companies that focus solely on profit, and this was just Showed up in a few bits of literature that I read is that, you know, companies that focus solely on profit at the expense of, of purpose, they could in fact actually be holding themselves back. You know, they, they are actually limiting the impact they could have as an organization, and, you know, they could actually never reach their full potential as an organization in the form of, you know, corporate flourishment. Finally, the, the fourth major finding of my research was that, that leaders play a significant role. So, you know, leaders have agency, they can and should choose a, a virtue ethics approach to modern day business. there was this fantastic research I found, and I, I can't remember who it was by at the moment, but they, they spoke to leaders as being the stewards of an organization's purpose, and as such, as stewards of an organization's purpose, leaders play a significant role in that leader-follower relationship. So, you know, at the end of the day, Key findings was that, you know, leaders are, are actually responsible for creating the environment in which the, the inherent psychological needs of people can flourish. and through this, this enabling of, of individual expression to, to blossom, you know, in service of, of, of the greater good, leaders are, are actually doing good, you know, they're leading by example, and at the same time, they need to purposely frame a strategic approach that meets the needs of all stakeholders. ### Passage: Putting purpose into practice at organisation and leader level [27:06–29:44, 461 words] Note (AI): Gives the practical actions arising from the research: board buy-in, strategy alignment, emotional connection and making people feel they matter. Gordon Wilson, guest [27:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1626): > So I let my mind wander a bit, and, I came up with actions. So that could be implemented by organizations to help them put purpose into practice at, three different levels. You know, these were organizational level, leader level, and human resources level. And I won't talk too long, but I'll just touch quickly, you know, just the high-level points at each of those three levels. So, you know, if we are wanting to put purpose into practice at an organizational level, the, the organization needs to elevate the focus on purpose to the same level as profit. The organizations need to, they need to craft and articulate a purpose statement that resonates and engages. I mean, you guys have done that brilliantly at your organization. What's really important as well is that organizations need to ensure that there is buy-in. You need buy-in at board level and executive level to, to the purpose of the organization, because if it's not encapsulated in the hearts and minds of our leaders, it's never going to take hold in the hearts of our people. And, and this was another very interesting one is that at organizational level, we need to make sure that, that strategy, our strategy as an organization is aligned with our purpose. I mean, it, it seems simple in, in theory, but, you know, in reality, it's not always the case. So at the, at the second level, you know, of putting purpose into practice was looked at leader level. So, so what should leaders be doing? And, the, the first point there I was thinking of is that leaders need to have an emotional connection with the organization's purpose. You can't have leaders who are fulfilling a task-filled role. They don't buy wholeheartedly to what the organization's trying to achieve in the wider ecology. Leaders also need to, they need to foster meaningful connection, you know, with their people. it was, it was one of Adam Grant's papers, it was published in 2012, I think, where he said that leaders play a critical role in managing the meaning that followers make out of their work. So continuing, and there's a few more points at, at leader level, leaders need to show their people that they matter. So they need to make them feel seen, heard, and understood. You know, that's, that's something that any human being wants, is they want to know that they are seen, heard, and understood. And it's important that, that leaders show people that they matter. This was a, a, almost a secondary concept that came up was this concept of mattering, and, there's a whole lot of research actually going into that concept of mattering, that people want to feel that they matter. ### Passage: How the EMBA changed Gordon's way of working [33:20–35:25, 380 words] Note (AI): Describes concrete changes in his working habits: systemic thinking, intentionality and time set aside for reading and mindfulness. Gordon Wilson, guest [33:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=2000): > So this MBA, this two-year journey has been amazing, and it's got me, it's got me really excited about the future, to be honest, you know, I'm just so much more aware of the, that there's so much, there's so much available, there's so much to explore, so much more meaningful impact to be affected and, and more value to be created. So it has definitely changed the way I think and I work. I, I just like to think that I'm far more systemic in my thinking, you know, thinking around how the constituent parts interrelate within the whole system, and, you know, what, what the causal impacts of decisions we make in, in isolation, you know, what impact that can have on, on the rest of the system. And, Yeah, you know, the, the entire MBA process, the, the two years, they flew by, to be honest, even though it was so busy and intense and full of pressure, but the whole two-year journey has, has changed the way I work. So I spend, I spend far more time now on improving myself and my craft as I, as I aim to, to increase my mastery, you know, as it relates to my field and my passion, you know, understanding the, the purpose of a human life and how best we can solve business problems, you know, because people, they're at the heart of everything. And I'm also far more intentional, so I'm trying to focus more on producing quality work and not running on the always busy hamster wheel like I used to. I just used to be constantly busy, and it's not a great way to work. You don't produce quality work when you're always just busy running from one thing to the next. So I've adopted an approach to I Carving out a pocket of time during the day to, to read, to practice mindfulness, and to learn, you know, because I've, I've come to understand that I can't improve the human condition without improving myself first. And, you know, perhaps another quote, I love it, but, perhaps it was Leonardo da Vinci that, said it best, you know, when he said that one can have no smaller or greater mastery than mastery of oneself. ### Quotes > "this is the true joy in life, the being used for a purpose recognized by yourself as a mighty one." > — Gordon Wilson, guest · [07:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=430) > "most of us go to our graves with our music still inside us, unplayed." > — Gordon Wilson, guest · [10:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=632) > "each day is a gift and, you, you never know when, When you're going to have your last day." > — Gordon Wilson, guest · [12:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=755) > "all business research is action research. It all leads to action." > — Petro du Pisani, host · [16:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=999) > "companies that focus solely on profit at the expense of, of purpose, they could in fact actually be holding themselves back." > — Gordon Wilson, guest · [21:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1314) > "if it's not encapsulated in the hearts and minds of our leaders, it's never going to take hold in the hearts of our people." > — Gordon Wilson, guest · [28:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1682) > "You don't produce quality work when you're always just busy running from one thing to the next." > — Gordon Wilson, guest · [34:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=2091) > "I can't improve the human condition without improving myself first." > — Gordon Wilson, guest · [35:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=2109) > "one can have no smaller or greater mastery than mastery of oneself." > — Gordon Wilson, guest · [35:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=2121) > "Chris Breen in his sessions, he just smashed our egos, which was beautiful," > — Gordon Wilson, guest · [36:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=2200) ### Claims > "I grew up in Durban most of my life there and, moved down to the Cape about 10 years ago in pursuit of, corporate challenges, which is where I find myself today." > — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Background · [01:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=64) > "I'm fascinated with human behavior. So specifically around how and why people make decisions and what we can do with that knowledge to better understand, predict, and influence human behavior." > — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Purpose as a driver of behaviour · [01:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=79) > "I work in the human performance improvement industry for a company called Achievement Awards Group. Where we, we bring the, the science and the art of, business and people performance together." > — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Background · [01:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=97) > "the EMBA's got a, it's got a far greater focus on, on one's ability to, to view the world through, through a different lens, to conceptualize and to strategize, you know, as opposed to, I find, you know, most traditional MBAs are, they just focus on improving your proficiency in, in functional management." > — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Executive MBA experience · [03:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=231) > "But for me personally, and this was one of the draw cards to the, the executive MBA, was the softer stuff. So that focus around your personal transformation, your personal and authentic leadership, mindfulness practice, reflexivity, self-mastery," > — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Executive MBA experience · [05:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=300) > "through writing position papers, five, five specific position papers, the things that I wrote in those papers, I'll never forget them, because you spend so many weeks writing and researching and putting it in your own words that it's something that's going to stay with you forever." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Executive MBA experience · [05:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=348) > "it was in that, in that BMI session itself, you know, we were in the auditorium at my, at my office, and, we found that the problem we were actually trying to solve was, was one of purpose, and that the organization was not a purposeful or a purpose-driven organization." > — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Purpose as a driver of behaviour · [07:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=469) > "the output was a new purpose-centric model of organizational culture, which would shift an organization from, say, a hierarchical culture towards an, an entrepreneurial culture of, you know, purposeful action, putting people at the center, greater autonomy, and empowerment." > — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Putting purpose into practice · [08:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=526) > "I lost my mom last year, you know, so you sort of think, you know, what am I supposed to be doing? You get that whole sense and we lost a lot of people last year as well to COVID." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Purpose as a driver of behaviour · [11:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=703) > "So within this paradigm of interpretivism, I adopted action research to generate data and meaning about the phenomenon of purpose, and then I used thematic analysis to analyze the data," > — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Research methodology · [13:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=838) > "thematic analysis actually allows you to surface repeated patterns and connect the themes that are, that are pulling through from those patterns in the data." > — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Research methodology · [14:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=869) > "no matter what research methodology you choose, it all ends up being the same type of thing. You gather data, you get themes, you group them together, and you discuss the themes." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Research methodology · [14:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=881) > "I quite enjoyed action research as the, as the approach because it allowed me to be both participant and observer, you know, within the context of my research," > — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Research methodology · [16:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=973) > "all business research is action research. It all leads to action. It has to lead to action, otherwise why are you doing it?" > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Research methodology · [16:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=999) > "But my supervisor, Jean Bolton, right from the beginning, she said, don't have any ideas of what final answer might be. She said, you know, just approach the research, start the research, and just see where it takes you." > — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Research methodology · [17:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1031) > "And what do we do with this knowledge to drive both business health and human flourishing? You know, in my mind, for me, you cannot have one or the other." > — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Profit and purpose balance · [17:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1061) > "which indicate that purposeful people are healthier, they're happier, they tend to live longer, they tend to fulfill their potential, and they can even achieve and earn more." > — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Purpose as a driver of behaviour · [19:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1172) > "There was this one brilliant study that looked at purpose-driven people ten years apart versus non-purpose-driven people. They found that these guys actually earned more a decade later than people who weren't purpose-driven." > — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Purpose as a driver of behaviour · [19:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1182) > "Secondly, so my second major finding was that purpose is an intrinsic motivator. So purpose as the, the underlying drive to do something because it is in service of something bigger than ourselves, or because it's interesting, or because it matters to us personally, that's an incredibly powerful motivational force for human beings." > — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Purpose as a driver of behaviour · [20:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1207) > "My research indicated that organizations can and should focus on both profit and purpose equally, you know, because profit actually is the primary driver which enables an organization to affect and expand its purpose in the wider ecology in society." > — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Profit and purpose balance · [21:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1281) > "companies that focus solely on profit at the expense of, of purpose, they could in fact actually be holding themselves back." > — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Profit and purpose balance · [21:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1314) > "they, they spoke to leaders as being the stewards of an organization's purpose, and as such, as stewards of an organization's purpose, leaders play a significant role in that leader-follower relationship." > — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Leadership and purpose · [22:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1351) > "leaders are, are actually responsible for creating the environment in which the, the inherent psychological needs of people can flourish." > — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Leadership and purpose · [22:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1367) > "So the, the purpose of the company, as stated, is to reimagine mining to improve people's lives, okay? So which, with each and every pers, piece of work that you do, you can go, by doing this piece of work, am I improving people's life?" > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Putting purpose into practice · [23:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1432) > "I interviewed twenty-four leaders at our organization, and, a lot of those findings were that Sometimes there, that there isn't always alignment at a purpose level, but there's alignment at a functional level." > — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Leadership and purpose · [25:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1507) > "But as leaders, we should, we should make sure that they leave our organization better off than, than when they started with us." > — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Leadership and purpose · [26:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1568) > "I came up with actions. So that could be implemented by organizations to help them put purpose into practice at, three different levels. You know, these were organizational level, leader level, and human resources level." > — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Putting purpose into practice · [27:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1629) > "the organization needs to elevate the focus on purpose to the same level as profit. The organizations need to, they need to craft and articulate a purpose statement that resonates and engages." > — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Putting purpose into practice · [27:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1655) > "You need buy-in at board level and executive level to, to the purpose of the organization, because if it's not encapsulated in the hearts and minds of our leaders, it's never going to take hold in the hearts of our people." > — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Putting purpose into practice · [27:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1677) > "leaders need to show their people that they matter. So they need to make them feel seen, heard, and understood." > — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Leadership and purpose · [29:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1755) > "If you, for example, have a call center agent, they need to know that what they're doing on a day-to-day basis, how does that fit into the bigger picture?" > — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Leadership and purpose · [29:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1790) > "There was another incredibly interesting thing that came up in the research was this notion of behavioral integrity, and I mean, it sounds fancy, but it's just, it's where your words and your actions align." > — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Leadership and purpose · [30:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1807) > "HR needs to, they need to revisit their hiring practices, you know, particularly around leadership and, future leadership hires, you know, to ensure that there is alignment both at a, at a personal level and at a values level." > — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Putting purpose into practice · [30:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1855) > "Joe Raylan said that sometimes the research itself is a change process, and we started finding that happening." > — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Research methodology · [31:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1919) > "one of the outcomes was, our CEO asking me to craft a communication to the entire business, to tell them what our purpose is and, and what it means to be a purpose-driven company," > — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Putting purpose into practice · [32:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1943) > "I'm trying to focus more on producing quality work and not running on the always busy hamster wheel like I used to." > — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Personal transformation · [34:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=2080) > "I've come to understand that I can't improve the human condition without improving myself first." > — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Personal transformation · [35:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=2108) > "I walked in on that first day, and, you know, chest was out, and thought, yeah, I'm the man, you know, executive MBA, and there were like seventy other people, and yeah, I quickly realized that I'm like, like, nothing compared to some of these people." > — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Executive MBA experience · [36:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=2177) > "so for anyone who, who's wondering whether or not it's worth it, it's absolutely worth doing an MBA. I would recommend it any day of the week." > — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Executive MBA experience · [36:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=2212) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) A learning journey conversation with a fellow EMBA student. In this episode Petro speaks to fellow UCT EMBA student, Gordon Wilson (Achievement Awards Group) Over the past two years we have been working towards our Executive MBAs through the University of Cape Town's Graduate Business School. With classes moving on-line due to the covid-19 pandemic there wasn't enough time (for me) to connect with fellow students and hear about their research projects. I decided to interview my fellow students to hear about their research. In this podcast I ask Gordon about his research, which focused on how purpose is a driver for human behaviour. Gordon tells me more about why he chose this topic, how he did the research and what his major findings were. He also shares how this research changed him and the way he thinks about purpose. Find out more about Gordon Wilson · Find out more about UCT's EMBA programme · Connect with Petro · Solid Gold Podcasts ## #017 Chris Breen | Finding what matters most - Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/017-finding-what-matters-most/ - Date: 2020-07-19 (as at 2020-07-19) - Guest: Chris Breen - Host: Petro du Pisani - Themes: Personal leadership, Teaching for transformation, Learning from failure, Three marriages, Living an examined life, Say yes to everything, Leading during COVID-19 - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/991973 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Chris Breen - Emeritus Professor · UCT GSB - After many years as a university mathematics educator, he changed direction twelve years ago. He now focuses on designing and running corporate programs on personal leadership in complex times. In their own words: > "So I pushed at my maths ability and came top of maths in the country writing advanced maths, did athletics and became top in the country and, and took the hardest of ed hurdles." [06:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=380) > "Studied UCT, did chemical engineering, started studying a master's in physical chemistry, decided that was not very helpful." [07:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=429) > "I went to England and studied Very quickly studied a master's in teaching mathematics, which totally turned my whole world upside down as to what methodology of maths could be." [08:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=522) > "the NGO grew to having a staff of eighteen. I was finding all the funding for it, member of the Radical Maths Education Group." [12:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=738) > "I was awarded the University of Cape Town Distinguished Teacher Award. And I decided to have a party to thank prominent past students for what they'd taught me along the way." [13:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=798) > "It's been thirty-five years in the making, so it's got a lot of background, a lot of writing, a lot of researching about it, and I became president of the International Maths Research Group and presented papers and, and gave workshops on it." [15:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=902) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Host Petro du Pisani talks with Chris Breen, a former maths educator who now teaches personal leadership in complex times, as part of her EMBA learning-journey series. Chris traces his path from an asthmatic childhood, through the 1980s school struggle and an NGO, to his move into leadership teaching after deciding to 'say yes to everything'. He explains his teaching method of disturbing people's assumptions. He also discusses David Whyte's three marriages, James Hollis's examined life, Rumi's Guest House and what leaders need during COVID-19. His recurring argument is that he teaches from his failures and that life is about dealing with failure. **Key ideas** - Chris argues that the only way we learn is through perturbation: having our core assumptions disturbed so we do our own thinking. ([14:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=898) [16:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1010) [17:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1029)) - Chris says a teacher offers only their own journey, and that his teaching comes mainly from his failures. ([00:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=6) [21:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1306) [21:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1306)) - Drawing on David Whyte, Chris rejects the balanced life. He holds that marriage to self means inner reflection, not busy solo activity. ([28:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1684) [28:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1699) [29:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1743) [29:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1758)) - Chris argues that entitlement makes setbacks feel like failure. Letting go of hope and fear lets people act from their true selves. ([30:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1805) [30:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1808) [30:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1859) [37:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2245)) - During COVID-19, Chris found organisations needed validation and affirmation of self before any leadership training. The host describes a corporate push instead to 'not waste the crisis'. ([24:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1474) [24:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1497) [25:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1542) [26:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1597)) - Chris describes his early experience that rational lecturing did not change teachers, whose practice did not match their stated politics. ([09:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=591) [10:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=655) [11:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=708)) - Chris credits a rune reading telling him to 'say yes to everything' with opening his path into business-school teaching. He also questions the payoff of taking on too much. ([12:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=759) [12:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=762) [14:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=848) [38:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2298) [38:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2331)) **Teaching through perturbation** ([14:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=898) [15:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=956) [16:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1010) [17:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1029) [17:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1051)) 1. Level the playing field very quickly in the first session. 2. Put a framework in place that stops people ad-hocking and alpha males dominating, and assert authority. 3. Once people cooperate and every voice is equal, disturb taken-for-granted assumptions through what he does, presents, workshops or conversations. 4. Harvest the disturbance so people make their own decisions, without a model of where they should end up. **Lessons** - Chris suggests that marriage to self is time spent looking inwards, not busy solo activity, which may be avoidance of self. ([28:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1684) [29:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1743) [29:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1758)) - Chris advises asking what the payoff and cost are when you take on too many commitments. ([38:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2298) [38:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2331) [38:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2335)) - Chris recommends asking how your true self would act if you set aside hope for a result and fear of another. ([30:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1859) [37:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2245)) - Chris holds, citing Stephen Jenkinson, that life is about dealing with failure rather than a success story. ([00:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=6) [35:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2150) [36:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2160)) - Chris's parting message is to pay attention to what matters most and act from your true self without excuses. ([42:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2540) [42:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2540)) **Who it's for:** Leaders, EMBA students and educators interested in personal leadership, reflective practice and teaching for transformation. Also people rethinking how they spend their time and energy during crisis. **Facts stated in the episode** - Chris qualified for the Olympic Games in Mexico, but South Africa was thrown out about a week later. ([06:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=414)) - The NGO Chris started grew to a staff of eighteen. ([12:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=738)) - Chris received the University of Cape Town Distinguished Teacher Award. ([13:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=798)) - Chris says his teaching style has been thirty-five years in the making, and he was president of an international maths research group. ([15:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=902)) - At an AGM in Australia, two words added to the constitution opened the research group to papers on all important topics. ([19:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1191) [20:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1204)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: What is Chris Breen's teaching method based on?** A: He says learning happens through perturbation: being disturbed at our core so we do our own thinking. After levelling the playing field, he spends his energy disturbing assumptions and lets people decide for themselves, with no fixed outcome model. ([14:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=898) [15:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=956) [16:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1010) [17:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1029) [17:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1051)) **Q: What does 'marriage to self' mean in David Whyte's three marriages?** A: Chris says it is the ability to be on your own looking inwards, to feel grief and to stand still and breathe. Punishing your body through sport, or busy solo activities, is not marriage to self. ([28:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1684) [29:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1743) [29:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1758)) **Q: Should you try to balance work, relationships and yourself equally?** A: Chris says David Whyte calls the balanced life a load of rubbish. The three marriages are in constant conversation with each other, and you can contract for less time in one area during a given period. ([28:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1684) [28:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1699) [28:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1699)) **Q: What do employees need from leaders during the COVID-19 crisis?** A: From two organisational conversations, Chris found the starting point was validation and affirmation of self. People need permission to take time for what fulfils them, with leaders encouraging it. ([24:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1474) [24:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1497)) **Q: How did Chris Breen end up teaching leadership at a business school?** A: After a rune reading told him to say yes to everything, he won a UCT teaching award and invited past students to a party. Kurt April invited him to teach, and he was then recommended for a leadership program he had never taught. ([12:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=759) [12:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=762) [13:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=798) [14:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=848)) **Q: How should you respond when bad things happen?** A: Chris draws on Rumi's Guest House: do not feel entitled or waste energy bemoaning your fate, but engage and ask what you can learn. He describes applying this when his back seized after his mother's death. ([30:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1805) [30:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1808) [31:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1916)) **Q: What questions should you ask yourself in life?** A: Chris asks whether he is true to himself, who and what he is in service to, and whether he acts in line with his purpose. The host asks how she wants to spend her time and what type of person she wants to be. ([36:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2180) [36:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2196)) ### Passage: A childhood shaped by determined parents and asthma [03:23–05:49, 375 words] Note (AI): Chris traces his drive and his relationship to struggle back to his mother's wartime history and his own childhood illness. Chris Breen, guest [03:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=203): > So when you say you want to talk and have a conversation about change, my mother was ten when the Second World War started and was immediately shipped off out of London with strangers. Bombing in London, had a friend killed with a bomb, walking, when she was walking next to her, lost her boyfriend, got married at eighteen to a man twenty years older than her who'd been born Cockney working class, had taken elocution lessons to, to change his language, had been in the war in minesweeping, and then started as an office boy in a company in South Africa, and then when they got married, moved to South Africa. And my mother had me at the very next year at nineteen. So I was born into, to very determined parents, full of change in their life, dramatic change. And so that's me coming into the world and in a sense, having a, a reaction to all of their stuff, which was that I was born as an asthmatic. So, so again, sort of struggle to breathe. Lots of struggle to survive. And in fact, the primary school was pulled out of the swimming pool, supposedly dead, having gone in the deep end when I couldn't swim, but fortunately I recovered. Fortunately for some, maybe not for current students. Yeah, so, so that asthma also, I had a talent in running, but I was in an all-boys school, and of course my father, having come from his background, wanted us to go to the best schools, even if we didn't fit in. So I grew up in Cape Town, went to all-boys private schools, could do sport, win the victrola dorm at primary school, then struggled to breathe for a long time, be sick for a long time, jumped to class because I was supposedly Very competent, and then kept back for three years because I was too young. And so a whole mixture of survival and pushing really hard, both my parents, especially my mother. Whatever I did, the next thing was, what's next? How do you do better? A privileged background of confusion and always pushing, always being pushed, and always needing to do better, and always take on new tasks. ### Passage: Political awakening and teaching for transformation [09:51–12:38, 392 words] Note (AI): Chris explains how the 1980s school struggle, a detained colleague and failed lecturing pushed him to research teaching for transformation. Chris Breen, guest [09:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=591): > So I started, got a job at UCT in about eighty-four, immediately started a master's in teaching mathematics, all new programs. Insisted on going out into the townships to understand what was going on in schools in the townships, and immediately in 1986, all the boycott and the troubles in the schools. I also started an NGO, appointed against my colleagues in the department, fellow lecturers, best advice. I appointed a political activist who was in my B.Ed. class to be, to work for me at the NGO. He was immediately detained, tortured, and so my induction into the political realities in the school happened, and I became very involved in supporting students and teachers in the schools, which pushed me into trying to make a difference in the lecture room. And very quickly I learned that by doing that by rational research, lecturing didn't help at all, because the left-wingers loved what I was saying, viva comrade, viva, and enjoyed the, the theory, what, what I was offering, but the right-wingers just were saying, bloody communist, and that we don't want to listen to him. 1986 was a tumultuous year, both in the, in the political scene in the schools, but also for me, because the very next year I said, I've got to change my teaching methodology. And I'm going to devote myself to finding, researching my own practice, first person, second person research to what is it to teach for transformation? How do I get math teachers to recognize the intelligence of the people in their class, even if that intelligence is very different? Because I think that I found out whether you were left-wing or right-wing, most of the people, most of the teachers, in their student teaching anyway, were fascists in the classroom. What they actually did was not aligned with what they said. And that started a whole long journey in lecturing, in making that, that project that had one person in the townships in my spare time, still being a full-time lecturer, the NGO grew to having a staff of eighteen. I was finding all the funding for it, member of the Radical Maths Education Group. I became a member of that, went to England for a first conference on political dimensions in maths education, and everything became focused on how do you teach differently. ### Passage: Saying yes to everything leads to business school [12:39–14:34, 298 words] Note (AI): The turning point in which a rune reading, a teaching award and a former student led Chris into leadership teaching. Chris Breen, guest [12:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=759): > So round about 2000, everything changed again. I, I went to one of these funny throwing the runes, alternative fortune telling, and I w- and I got, say yes to everything. The runes have come down with lots of buffalo energy, say yes to everything, explore everything. And boy, oh boy, did everything happen from there. And I just kept saying yes, and that stayed with me since then. And while, in that same year, while I accepted giving a talk at a Portuguese math teachers conference and doing PhD research seminar in New Zealand, I was awarded the University of Cape Town Distinguished Teacher Award. And I decided to have a party to thank prominent past students for what they'd taught me along the way. And one of the people invited was a guy who'd done, who'd done the teacher's diploma with me, Kurt April, and he is, was then and still is a lecturer at U, at UCT's business school. And he said, what are you doing? And I'd just been to a workshop in England on complexity at work. And he said, but I'm teaching on that. Come and teach my MBA program with me. And I said, only if we can, I can sit in on the whole session. And, and every single session. And I did that, and a week later, someone phoned me and said, Kurt can't teach on our leadership program, and he's recommended you as the best person. And I'd never taught the subject, but of course, I've got to say yes to everything. So I said, sure. And it was through that experience and getting more and more involved in the business school that I started teaching and started, and that's how I came to teach on the EMBA. ### Passage: How the perturbation teaching style works [14:58–17:49, 420 words] Note (AI): Chris lays out the reasoning and sequence behind his classroom method: level the field, then disturb assumptions and let people decide. Petro du Pisani, host [14:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=898): > So how did you come up with, with exactly that sort of teaching style? Chris Breen, guest [15:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=902): > It's been thirty-five years in the making, so it's got a lot of background, a lot of writing, a lot of researching about it, and I became president of the International Maths Research Group and presented papers and, and gave workshops on it. I think the emerg- the urgency of transformation, then, even more now, means that there's a very small window of opportunity to access people and to get people engaged. And one of the problems is that what I'm trying to access is people's internal worlds and bring about change in that which I think is crucial to change how we are in the world, how we behave in the world. And so in that first session, especially, I've got to level the playing fields very quickly. I've got to Put a framework round that stops people just ad-hocking along, stops the alpha males, whether they're white or of color or male or gen or female. I've got to stop people thinking they can just speak when they want to, take the piss when they want to. yeah, this is serious business, and I've got to somehow assert that authority externally. Once there's control and people are, are cooperating and there aren't discordant voices and people trying to dominate and everybody's voice is equal. Then what I, what I learned very quickly, and, and I've finally found a theory to back it up, but that the only way we learn is from what the theory calls perturbation, being disturbed, having our core selves, our core structures disturbed, so that we do our own thinking. And the, the beautiful thing that it says for the teacher is the teacher's job isn't to pay attention to the outcome. The teacher must spend all their energy disturbing the natural taken-for-granted assumptions, either through what I do or through what I present or workshops or putting people to talk to other people, and that that disturbance then must be, must be Harvested so people have a chance to make their own decisions about what they want to do. So I don't have a model of where I want people to get to, but I have a damn good idea about what I want them to think about, and that's what I do in my associations. Try and create a disturbance for people to think, talk, reconsider, decide whether those taken for granted assumptions are still worthwhile or not. ### Passage: David Whyte's three marriages and marriage to self [28:04–30:03, 356 words] Note (AI): Chris separates genuine inner reflection from busy solo activity and rejects the idea of a balanced life. Chris Breen, guest [28:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1684): > So I'm laughing because that's exactly what, why David White wrote the book and came up with the talk, which he actually did in Joburg. When it first came out. The, the ideas, he says this balanced life is a load of rubbish. You can't live a balanced life. And so he talks about the three marriages being in constant conversation with each other. And so the idea is that you, that now that you're doing your EMBA, that you contract that there will be for this period, there will be less time spent here. But his point is that, and it, and it's similar to James Hollis's having to listen to your soul, listen to your, in the second half of life, if you don't balance the inner and the outer, you're going to waste your life. And so this marriage to self is listening to the inner self. And it was so funny, I was starting interviewing the people who were coming on a Deloitte program with me, and there was this white guy who said, no, I've got no problem with myself. I, I do mountain biking and I break my record every time and I do this and I do that. And I just said, no, you're punishing your body. That's not marriage to self, that is self-masochism. So, so the marriage to self is the ability to be on your own, in the woods, in nature, looking inwards. It's the ability to feel the grief of the poverty and the hunger that's around at the moment. It's the ability to stop and what Robert Bly calls shudder at what's going on in your life and in what's going on in others. It's standing still and breathing. So I don't know whether you do that. You probably spend a hell of a lot of time doing all sorts of other things, but, you know, it's that time that matters. And that's when, when your partner asks, says, no, you spend a lot of time on your own, that's not necessarily time that's in marriage to self. That's, that's avoidance of self, probably. ### Passage: Entitlement, living beyond hope and fear, facing pain [30:05–32:28, 357 words] Note (AI): Chris links entitlement, Margaret Wheatley and Rumi's Guest House to his own response to his mother's death and his injury. Chris Breen, guest [30:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1805): > I think it's part of an attitude to life. There's, there's a way in which We've become entitled, and that, and that entitlement means that we think life should be good, and that we're failing when we don't get everything going perfectly according to our plans. And I think there's a real, that's not helpful, because then when things go wrong, there's an immediate panic, and there's immediate self-loathing, and there's immediately, I'm not good enough, what did I do wrong, whose fault is it? It's so much wasted time and energy. And I've been drawn again to a very pessimistic woman, Margaret Wheatley, who says the world's in such a bad state, it's in serial decline, and we just must live without hope and without fear. But there's something positive in that, that if we let go of hope, and if we let go of fear, And we just act in every situation according to our true selves, according to our essences, that we're going to be aligned with good to ourselves, to others, and to the world. And so Ruby's poem, The Guest House, is saying that life is not good. Life is full of challenges. Do not feel entitled. Do not waste time when things go wrong. Face up to it. And what can you learn? What happens? What does this give you? What, what are you going to do with it? Yeah. So, so immediately after that call that the family had talking about my mother's death and honoring her, I went with a partner and we went and watched a movie, and when I tried to get up, I couldn't get up. My back had totally seized in my lower back, and I know how it had happened, just in moving something small. Now I can curse and sob, and why me? My mother's just died, and now this, and da-da-da-da-da. But it was like, handle pain, handle death, pay attention to this, and, and use this time to think about your mother, think about where your roots, think about what's happened. Maybe it's time to start thinking about Chris Breen's departure. ### Quotes > "What I'm doing now and what I'm offering are the lessons from all of the failures, and a few of the successes, but mainly from the failures that I've had in being out there and doing things," > — Chris Breen, guest · [00:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=6) > "And I'd never taught the subject, but of course, I've got to say yes to everything. So I said, sure." > — Chris Breen, guest · [14:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=856) > "I think that all any teacher can do is offer themselves and offer their journey." > — Chris Breen, guest · [21:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1306) > "I'm working hard, very hard on doing nothing and being comfortable in the disquiet of, of living in the, in the virus." > — Chris Breen, guest · [23:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1397) > "he says this balanced life is a load of rubbish. You can't live a balanced life." > — Chris Breen, guest · [28:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1699) > "That's not marriage to self, that is self-masochism." > — Chris Breen, guest · [29:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1754) > "You learn when you fail, not necessarily when you've done well." > — Petro du Pisani, host · [34:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2079) > "life is not about a success story. Life is about dealing with failure," > — Chris Breen, guest · [36:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2160) > "It's what's the noise? Shut the noise off." > — Chris Breen, guest · [37:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2268) > "There's no excuse for d- for saying yes to too many things, actually." > — Chris Breen, guest · [38:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2335) > "Pay attention to what matters most to you, and really act from your true self without excuses, without procrastination." > — Chris Breen, guest · [42:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2540) ### Claims > "my mother was ten when the Second World War started and was immediately shipped off out of London with strangers." > — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Family history · [03:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=207) > "So I pushed at my maths ability and came top of maths in the country writing advanced maths, did athletics and became top in the country and, and took the hardest of ed hurdles." > — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Early life · [06:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=380) > "And again, this thing of challenge and failure, I qualified for the Olympic Games in Mexico. would have gone to run there, but about a week after I qualified, South Africa was thrown out." > — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Learning from failure · [06:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=414) > "Studied UCT, did chemical engineering, started studying a master's in physical chemistry, decided that was not very helpful." > — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Career path · [07:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=429) > "I went to England and studied Very quickly studied a master's in teaching mathematics, which totally turned my whole world upside down as to what methodology of maths could be." > — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Career path · [08:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=522) > "I appointed a political activist who was in my B.Ed. class to be, to work for me at the NGO. He was immediately detained, tortured, and so my induction into the political realities in the school happened," > — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Teaching for transformation · [10:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=621) > "And very quickly I learned that by doing that by rational research, lecturing didn't help at all, because the left-wingers loved what I was saying, viva comrade, viva, and enjoyed the, the theory, what, what I was offering, but the right-wingers just were saying, bloody communist, and that we don't want to listen to him." > — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Teaching for transformation · [10:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=655) > "Because I think that I found out whether you were left-wing or right-wing, most of the people, most of the teachers, in their student teaching anyway, were fascists in the classroom. What they actually did was not aligned with what they said." > — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Teaching for transformation · [11:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=708) > "the NGO grew to having a staff of eighteen. I was finding all the funding for it, member of the Radical Maths Education Group." > — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Career path · [12:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=738) > "I went to one of these funny throwing the runes, alternative fortune telling, and I w- and I got, say yes to everything. The runes have come down with lots of buffalo energy, say yes to everything, explore everything." > — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Say yes to everything · [12:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=762) > "I was awarded the University of Cape Town Distinguished Teacher Award. And I decided to have a party to thank prominent past students for what they'd taught me along the way." > — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Career path · [13:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=798) > "a week later, someone phoned me and said, Kurt can't teach on our leadership program, and he's recommended you as the best person. And I'd never taught the subject, but of course, I've got to say yes to everything." > — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Say yes to everything · [14:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=848) > "It's been thirty-five years in the making, so it's got a lot of background, a lot of writing, a lot of researching about it, and I became president of the International Maths Research Group and presented papers and, and gave workshops on it." > — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Teaching for transformation · [15:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=902) > "I've got to level the playing fields very quickly. I've got to Put a framework round that stops people just ad-hocking along, stops the alpha males, whether they're white or of color or male or gen or female." > — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Teaching for transformation · [15:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=956) > "the only way we learn is from what the theory calls perturbation, being disturbed, having our core selves, our core structures disturbed, so that we do our own thinking." > — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Teaching for transformation · [16:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1010) > "The teacher must spend all their energy disturbing the natural taken-for-granted assumptions, either through what I do or through what I present or workshops or putting people to talk to other people, and that that disturbance then must be, must be Harvested so people have a chance to make their own decisions about what they want to do." > — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Teaching for transformation · [17:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1029) > "So I don't have a model of where I want people to get to, but I have a damn good idea about what I want them to think about, and that's what I do in my associations." > — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Teaching for transformation · [17:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1051) > "So I had a book dropped off for me a couple of days ago where someone who was in a class eleven years ago was making contact. He's having chemotherapy at the moment." > — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Personal leadership · [18:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1110) > "And in a memorable AGM as president in Australia, we got it overturned, and I, and I'd found a way just to put two extra words into the constitution, and, and we got that, and that changed everything." > — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Teaching for transformation · [19:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1191) > "So papers could come from on, on all important topics, and it immediately brought in many more people from Africa and the East into what had been a Europe and, and American-dominated organization." > — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Teaching for transformation · [20:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1204) > "I think that all any teacher can do is offer themselves and offer their journey." > — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Teaching for transformation · [21:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1306) > "actually the starting point for anything now is not a leadership training anything. It's some sort of validation and affirmation of self." > — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Leading during COVID-19 · [24:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1474) > "they need to be able to take time for themselves and, and talk about what fills them, fulfills them, what makes them excited, and if they're not doing anything to make themselves excited, then they have to be given work permission to find that time." > — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Leading during COVID-19 · [24:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1497) > "I, I'm finding, I'm having a completely different experience because what's happening now is everybody's saying, don't waste the good crisis." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Leading during COVID-19 · [25:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1542) > "people really wanted to like prove that they could adapt to this change. You know, I can do this. I can work virtually. I can go on as if nothing has actually happened in my life, but in, in real life, stuff's happened." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Leading during COVID-19 · [26:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1597) > "he says this balanced life is a load of rubbish. You can't live a balanced life. And so he talks about the three marriages being in constant conversation with each other." > — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Three marriages · [28:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1699) > "there was this white guy who said, no, I've got no problem with myself. I, I do mountain biking and I break my record every time and I do this and I do that. And I just said, no, you're punishing your body. That's not marriage to self, that is self-masochism." > — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Three marriages · [29:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1743) > "So, so the marriage to self is the ability to be on your own, in the woods, in nature, looking inwards. It's the ability to feel the grief of the poverty and the hunger that's around at the moment." > — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Three marriages · [29:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1758) > "There's, there's a way in which We've become entitled, and that, and that entitlement means that we think life should be good, and that we're failing when we don't get everything going perfectly according to our plans." > — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Learning from failure · [30:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1808) > "if we let go of hope, and if we let go of fear, And we just act in every situation according to our true selves, according to our essences, that we're going to be aligned with good to ourselves, to others, and to the world." > — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Personal leadership · [30:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1859) > "My back had totally seized in my lower back, and I know how it had happened, just in moving something small. Now I can curse and sob, and why me? My mother's just died, and now this, and da-da-da-da-da." > — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Learning from failure · [31:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1916) > "an elder's job is to tell people about failure, not about how to succeed, but how to deal with failure, that, that life is not about a success story. Life is about dealing with failure," > — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Learning from failure · [35:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2150) > "What I ask myself is about Being true to myself, and who am I in service to, and what am I in service to, and am I acting in alignment with my purpose in life?" > — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Living an examined life · [36:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2180) > "I, I think the questions that are important to me are, how do I want to spend my time? Because I, I think that time is really, really valuable, and you have to think about how you want to spend your time." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Living an examined life · [36:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2196) > "if I get rid of hope and fear in this situation, and I'm not influenced by wanting a certain result or being scared of a different result, how would my true self operate in this situation?" > — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Personal leadership · [37:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2245) > "What is the payoff for us when we take on all these extra things, and do we ever stop to see the cost of those, of that payoff?" > — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Say yes to everything · [38:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2298) > "because if we want more sleep, we should make the time to have it. There's no excuse for d- for saying yes to too many things, actually." > — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Say yes to everything · [38:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2331) > "One of the people who I admire enormously and who used to teach on programs for me is Thabo Mbeki, the Anglican Archbishop of Cape Town." > — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Influences · [40:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2422) > "I'm realizing the importance of relationships even more. And so paying attention to those that I love and giving the time and prioritizing them as being more important than anything else excites me," > — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Living an examined life · [40:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2443) > "Pay attention to what matters most to you, and really act from your true self without excuses, without procrastination. Act from that essence of who you are." > — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Personal leadership · [42:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2540) > "it's almost essential for the technology to go wrong. In order to check whether we can stay grounded, whether we can stay focused, whether we can keep a conversation going despite the noise." > — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Personal leadership · [42:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2578) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) A learning journey conversation Chris Breen (UCT GSB) In this episode host, Petro du Pisani, speaks to Emeritus Professor Chris Breen (UCT GSB) about his life, the transformations he has seen in others and himself, and some of the concepts he teaches in his course on Personal Leadership in Complex times. Chris has a carefully crafted teaching style which he describes as follows: 'In my sessions I try to disrupt our taken-for-granted assumptions and unconscious behavior by setting the class up as a real-life, real-time micro-laboratory where each participant gets a glimpse into themselves in action. I am looking to enhance the awareness of each participant as they develop their own personal leadership qualities necessary for carrying out their daily lives with wisdom and appropriate actions that are aligned with a commitment to adding to the strength of the human spirit both in their homes and in the work place.' In this episode Chris brings wisdom and lessons from his own life, and we also talk about 'Living an examined Life' (James Hollis), the three marriages (David Whyte) and Rumi's 'The Guest House.' This episode is part of a series of learning journey conversations Petro is having, as a result of meeting inspiring people as part of doing her EMBA through UCT's Graduate School of Business. Music : Duncan Breen - Goree island Find out more about Chris Breen · Find out more about UCT's EMBA · Connect with Petro · Solid Gold Podcasts ## #015 Tracey Swanepoel, Lisa Shippey and Bernard Swanepoel | The power of storytelling to inspire change - Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/015-the-power-of-storytelling-to-inspire/ - Date: 2020-01-07 (as at 2020-01-07) - Guest: Tracey Swanepoel, Bernard Swanepoel, Lisa Shippey - Host: Petro du Pisani, Petro du Pisani - Themes: Storytelling for leaders, Communicating business strategy, Listening to employees, Mining industry leadership, Human connection at work, Authenticity and vulnerability - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/991976 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Tracey Swanepoel - Thinkspiration - Grew up in Joburg and had a tennis scholarship to a US university. Did a BA communication, worked as a strategic planner in advertising, wrote an MBA dissertation on applying story internally, and started Thinkspiration. In their own words: > "I went, I got a scholarship to a US university. And I think, you know, a lot of things that I learned on the tennis court, helped me still in the work that I do today." [02:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=167) > "I then went to, UJ, in those days it was Rao, and I studied communication. I did a BA communication. I went into advertising. and I, I think that's where I was a strategic planner, but that's where my love for turning a sort of dry, complicated business strategy into a story that would be compelling, that would be emotional, that would influence people, that's where it really started." [03:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=203) > "Story, segmentation, branding, and I did my MBA dissertation on that, very theoretical. I had lots of ideas, and I was really looking for a client or a place to see if any of this would work." [04:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=291) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### About the guest: Bernard Swanepoel - Thinkspiration - Grew up in Rustenburg and went into mining in the early eighties. Was asked to become managing director of Harmony around 1993 or 1994, when it was earmarked for closure, and turned it around to profitability. In their own words: > "I went into mining, and that coincided with the, with the time in the early eighties when the National Union of Mine Workers actually changed the whole sort of dynamic of the country," [06:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=399) > "and to cut a long story short, very briefly after I got at, Beatrix, I was asked to become the managing director of Harmony. Must have been about 1993 or four thereabout." [07:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=471) > "Of course, it didn't close. We managed to turn it around, made it profitable, set out on a growth strategy," [08:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=501) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### About the guest: Lisa Shippey - director · Thinkspiration - Worked in NGOs with community, coaching, counseling and training. Her background is in psychology and social psychology. In their own words: > "in terms of career, working in NGOs with community, coaching, counseling, training, and all of this time just loving the idea of putting ideas and learning together with helping people." [10:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=648) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) The host speaks with three people from Thinkspiration about using storytelling to make business strategy understandable at every level of an organisation. Tracey Swanepoel brings an advertising and communication background. Bernard Swanepoel draws on his time turning around the Harmony gold mine. Lisa Shippey brings NGO and psychology experience and practical story templates. They share personal stories, argue that frontline listening reveals safety risks and ideas, and give tips on structuring short, purposeful and authentic stories. **Key ideas** - Bernard argues that everyone is already a storyteller at home but switches to PowerPoint and jargon at work, so storytelling can be taught to anybody. ([15:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=907) [17:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1029) [17:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1063)) - Tracey argues that the classic sender–message–receiver model is backwards and that communication should start with the receiver and what's in it for them. ([31:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1893) [31:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1898)) - Bernard holds that frontline people care and have practical suggestions, and that the gap between strategy and the ground costs companies billions of rand. ([32:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1930) [33:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2020) [34:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2073)) - The host and Bernard describe listening to workers as cheap and powerful: it surfaces safety risks and makes people feel seen. ([35:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2158) [37:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2268) [38:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2301)) - Lisa describes templates, such as a strategy story moving from past to change to now to future, and Anecdote's recipe for structuring a story. ([16:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=981) [45:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2742) [46:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2761)) - Tracey and Bernard argue that stories demand vulnerability and authenticity, and that this vulnerability draws people in. ([48:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2892) [48:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2913) [49:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2987)) - Tracey names listening, storytelling and focusing on strengths as the three underpins of a better workplace. ([57:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=3433)) **Anecdote story recipe (as described by Lisa Shippey)** ([45:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2742) [46:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2761)) 1. Start with a time or place marker: when or where something happened. 2. Describe a series of events. 3. Include an interaction between people. 4. End with a wow moment or realisation connected to a business point. **Lessons** - Tracey advises knowing the basics of a story, keeping it short and being clear on the business point it makes. ([44:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2675) [44:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2697)) - Bernard advises thinking about the audience and how to connect before every meeting, and being deliberate about using stories. ([19:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1195) [42:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2566)) - Lisa suggests drawing stories out of others by asking questions such as 'tell me about a time when'. ([19:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1151)) - Bernard's advice to young leaders is to learn to listen, then learn to communicate through stories. ([42:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2526)) - Tracey warns that incentives can backfire, using her son's reading programme as the example. ([44:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2655)) **Who it's for:** Leaders, managers, trainers and change or business improvement practitioners who need to explain strategy to diverse workforces, especially in mining or other large operational settings in South Africa, and anyone wanting practical storytelling techniques. **Facts stated in the episode** - Bernard says he was asked to become managing director of Harmony in about 1993 or 1994. ([07:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=471)) - Harmony's official business plan was called 'Closure with Dignity', affecting about forty thousand miners, according to Bernard. ([08:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=485)) - The host says his task force held over 2000 conversations across operations. ([30:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1824)) - Thinkspiration's storytelling material comes from Anecdote, a partner based in Australia, according to Lisa. ([45:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2742)) - Bernard entered mining in the early eighties, when the National Union of Mine Workers changed the industry's dynamic. ([06:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=399)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Can anyone learn to tell stories at work, or do you need natural talent?** A: Bernard says you can teach anybody because everyone already tells stories. The skill lies in refining them, for example keeping a story to ninety seconds. Tracey adds that it is more about unlearning the abstract workplace language. ([17:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1029) [17:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1063) [18:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1088)) **Q: How should I structure a story about a strategy change?** A: Lisa suggests starting with what happened in the past, then what happened to make change necessary, then what we are going to do now, and finally where we're going. ([16:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=981)) **Q: What makes a good business anecdote?** A: Lisa, citing the Anecdote recipe, lists a time or place marker, a series of events, an interaction between people, and a wow moment or realisation connected to a business point. She also stresses including emotion. ([45:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2742) [46:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2761)) **Q: Why don't frontline workers buy into corporate strategy?** A: Bernard says strategy gets translated into 'higher English' as it moves up the organisation. Leaders say 'we are going north' but forget to tell their people. This misalignment costs billions of rand. ([08:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=524) [32:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1930) [34:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2073)) **Q: How can listening to employees improve safety?** A: The host says that on a fatality-elimination task force, workers asked to tell their stories pointed out where the next fatality would come from, such as a rail crossing without a gate. ([29:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1762) [35:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2158) [37:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2268)) **Q: Why is being vulnerable important when telling stories at work?** A: Tracey says stories nearly always reveal something about yourself, so leaders must be prepared to be seen. Bernard argues that this vulnerability draws people in, even though it runs against corporate culture. ([48:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2892) [49:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2987)) **Q: What does Thinkspiration do?** A: According to Tracey and Lisa, it distils strategies into compelling stories and visual strategy maps built on a metaphor, and trains leaders in oral storytelling. Tracey also names listening, storytelling and focusing on strengths as its three underpins of a better workplace. ([12:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=745) [55:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=3356) [57:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=3433)) **Q: How did Bernard use a personal story to win over a hostile audience?** A: He told an anti-mining group about his father being retrenched and how that led him into mining. He connected as a human being rather than as an ex-CEO and received a standing applause. ([28:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1697) [28:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1722) [28:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1738)) ### Passage: From advertising to storytelling inside the gold mines [03:51–06:09, 391 words] Note (AI): Tracey explains how she moved from external advertising to applying story inside companies, and why mining became her test case. Tracey Swanepoel, guest [03:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=231): > I spent quite a long time in advertising, a few years, at the big agencies, but in that process, I think what I realized was, you know, advertising, the question you always ask is, what makes this different? What makes us different, the company? And nine times out of ten, the answer comes back as our people. You know, our people are these amazing, you know, they're amazing, and they, they, they are differentiator. And it got me interested, it sparked my interest in, are the people, do they know that they are sort of the, the key deliverers of, of the competitive advantage? So I got interested in, and, and went to, to speak to some of these people and, you know, find out, like, are they sort of creating the magic there? And of course, you can imagine, they were like, oh. If only this day would end, you know. So what happened was I perceived there to be a real opportunity inside companies to apply some of the principles that I'd seen work very effectively externally in the advertising space. Story, segmentation, branding, and I did my MBA dissertation on that, very theoretical. I had lots of ideas, and I was really looking for a client or a place to see if any of this would work. And that's where I intersected with, in a very unlikely way, the gold mining industry, who at the time, I mean, mining, as you know, it's sort of almost a microcosm of our society. It's got every demographic, and one of the key challenges is how do you get a rock drill operator to understand, care about, believe, deliver, you know, on things like strategy that are conceptually In the boardroom. So I guess the big thing that, that happened there was I found a client, that had a, that I guess there was an alignment in terms of, what, what we wanted to do, you know, in terms of, of changing how things were, and that was harmony. And I feel like I shouldn't, I should leave it there and carry on the story, but, but that was the beginning of quite a life-changing experience in terms of career, personally, in terms of really being able to deliver on things that, that change people's lives and, and do things differently. ### Passage: Harmony's turnaround and the unconvinced workforce [08:05–09:47, 309 words] Note (AI): Bernard describes turning around a mine slated for closure and realising that his workers had not bought into the celebrated strategy. Bernard Swanepoel, guest [08:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=485): > Harmony was, was interesting because it was earmarked for closure. Its official business plan was called Closure with Dignity. You can imagine the excitement in the life of forty thousand miners to go underground into a harsh environment, to pursue closure with dignity, you know. Of course, it didn't close. We managed to turn it around, made it profitable, set out on a growth strategy, and that got me to the point where it was weird. It was great. I mean, you know, I was on the front page of newspapers, magazines, wrote about the magic Harmony Way. When I presented in New Orleans or London, you know, often it was like, you know, standing room only, and yet back at home, back in Malcolm in a free state, I got a sense that the workers were not as excited about this corporate strategy as the shareholders and my management team was. And so I set out to say, there must be a way. If we are a great story, if this harmony story is, is so good, why is it that most of the people in the company don't feel that, don't live that, you know, aren't aligned? And, and so, I, I really came from the industry, I knew what didn't work, I, had no idea what would work. And so I started looking around for fresh ideas, different ideas, and bumped into a crazy bunch of people of which Tracey was just one. To be fair, she was probably the most normal of that crazy bunch, you know what I mean? And so, that's really the sort of the journey up to when I, as a, as a sort of supposedly successful, CEO and business leader, realized that if we want to, bring our people along, we're gonna have to, do things, a little bit differently. ### Passage: Two mining boardrooms and the meeting that changed Tracey's career [22:19–25:04, 534 words] Note (AI): This is a vivid personal story that contrasts a patronising conventional executive team with Harmony's informal leadership, and it shows how Thinkspiration's founding client came about. Tracey Swanepoel, guest [22:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1339): > the first meeting was, on the Monday, and we, we walked into this very, sort of conventional mining company, sort of plush carpets, you know, pictures on the wall of old founders looking down at you. And, you know, I'll never forget that meeting of sort of, there were sort of ten male white faces looking at me across that polished mahogany table as I sort of, you know, expounded on my views of how we needed to change the industry. And the, the CEO of that company at the time sort of looked me up and down and said, so, lovey, do you really expect me to believe you're gonna go out there and change the way that my mines operate? And, I mean, it was, it was so patronizing, and I sort of died a thousand deaths, and I thought, that's it, I'm not doing that. So I said to my partner, listen, there is no ways. we're not doing this, we're not going. And he said, listen, but we've got this, this Harmony meeting set up for Thursday. We've got to do it. Like, we can't get out of it. It's with the executive team. And I said, listen, I'm not going. You go. I'm, you know, anyway, long story short, he convinced me to go along, and it really was, you know, as Monty Python says, and now for something completely different. Harmony at the time had just done a hostile takeover of Ranfontein. I don't think Ranfontein liked them very much, because they didn't have any officers. So we had to meet at the, the Ranfontein Club, which was this, in this, I don't think the club was too bad, but they put us in an awful room of sort of musty and old smelling and mismatched tables and chairs. And I remember standing there waiting for this, you know, at the time Harmony's profile in the press was very high, and they, you know, called sort of mavericks of the industry, and I thought, how are they going to arrive? You know, are they going to come in a helicopter or how, you know? And out of the corner of my eye, I spotted a I thought it was a waiter in sort of jeans, very, very informally dressed, sort of golf shirt, slip slops, and I was just about to, to ask him, you know, please bring me another Diet Coke, and this guy stepped forward and said, hi, I'm Bernard Swanepoel. So luckily I didn't make that mistake. but the meeting that followed with Bernard and his team was just, you know, a, a life-changing meeting because, you know, yes, it was gold mining, not an industry that I ever thought, or mining, that I ever thought I would go into, but it was about what, you know, Harmony's purpose was, to change the industry, to do things differently, to turn conventional thinking on its head. and, and, you know, that, that Harmony story was something that was real, and that I bought into right from the outset. So if, in answer to your question, it was the Harmony story that really did change my life. ### Passage: Change house conversations and the cost of misalignment [32:10–35:09, 510 words] Note (AI): Bernard argues from experience that frontline people care and have practical ideas, and that failing to connect strategy to them costs companies heavily. Bernard Swanepoel, guest [32:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1930): > Twenty-one year old graduate. I was very clever in my own mind. I just had a mining engineering degree, and I was forced to go through all the levels in organization, starting to get my shift to get a blasting license to become a miner. Now, in those days, you then had to share the change houses with the miners. That's where towards the end of the apartheid years, so there was job reservation. these were old white men, often having finished matric or so, because, I mean, it was job protection, and mining was one of the sort of protected jobs. And I would sit in the change house there. Now, you know what it's like in a change house at the end of the shift. Most men, it's not like the Springbok change house. We were not wearing, underpants in the national colors. It's typically naked old men sitting around, being served their bad coffee by the change house boss boy, as they were called. And what amazed me was the quality of conversations. When I was a graduate, I was young, I was inexperienced, I was living the challenges of mining on a marginal, loss-making gold mine, and some of these guys had deep insight, and all of them cared. Then you would go out, and the conversations changed, and you would report to the shift boss, and he would say, yeah, yeah, but you can't say that, you know, we have to say we're on target, you know. And by the time you, you know, spoke to the mine captain, this was now higher English and no longer factual. And it, it stayed with me throughout my career that deeper into the organization, firstly, the people care, and secondly, they actually have got some really significant practical suggestions, as per your own story. You know, if you go and you find the stories in the organization, that may not necessarily change the strategy, but it will make the link between the strategy and what is happening on the ground real. And that's what we do in Thinkspiration, as you know. I mean, Tracey's got an amazing ability to conceptualize all these McKinsey PowerPoint slides into a visual story, an analogy. But before you can Make that a successful leadership and communication tool, you need to go onto the ground, under the ground, in some cases, and go and listen to the people, and hear where they are, because that, that disconnect is the misalignment or the lack of alignment which is costing companies billions and billions and billions of rand, because we say we are going north, and we forgot to tell our people, and they don't know where north is, and they don't agree with north, and so they are off into their own directions, and no disciplinary procedure or standing operating procedure or anything can fix that. So the leadership obligation of painting a compelling future That grounded in the reality of where your people, are at that time. I mean, that's leadership 101. ### Passage: Forty minutes with a train operator [35:58–38:44, 575 words] Note (AI): The host's safety-listening story, together with Bernard's response, shows how simply listening surfaces safety risks and builds commitment at almost no cost. Petro du Pisani, host [35:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2158): > Through the thousands of conversations our group had last year, I, I came to the conclusion that almost every single person we spoke to wanted to make a difference. They wanted to, they wanted to be able to show up at work and add value and be a person who's actually, I didn't come across a, a certain, a single person who was there to create chaos. You know what I mean? They were all there to, what, they want to provide for their families, they want to go home on time, they don't want to have to be underground for longer than they have to be. And, you know, just getting into a, a train carriage or, with a, a, a train operator and spending his journey with him. So he, from, going from the, from the one side of the mine to the other side of the mine, roughly forty minutes, sit and just have a forty minute conversation with this person. And when you get off at the other side, he said, you know, nobody's ever done that. Nobody's ever, nobody's ever, from, I've never seen anybody from management come and sit for forty minutes with me next to you and listen to all the things that's bothering me. And he'd had a couple of simple suggestions, like he'd say, you see this crossing we're going through at the moment? It doesn't have a gate. So if he wanted to be a safer operation or prevent fatalities, that sort of thing, if you just put a gate for us here, you know, that closes over the road where I'm going over with my, my train, it's going to make a huge difference. That's the, that's the, that's the part, because you asked the question. So in your daily life of being this Train, driver, train operator, what are the things that bother you the most? You know, what are the things that you are most worried about? Which areas are where you get a feeling of that I don't want to actually be here? And they tell you. So all they take, there might be an appliance, and the person will take your hand literally and say, come, I want to show you. And they'll go, look, something's fallen down here, and it's not safe. And if you ask them to tell their stories, they'll tell you where the next fatality is coming from. They'll tell you, and then you can prevent it. But now, Bernard Swanepoel, guest [37:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2276): > imagine him going back tonight after shift. What is the story he goes and shares with wherever, whether he goes to a hostel or whether he goes back home? He says, you know what happened today? For the first time, somebody came and listened to me. He falls in love with the organization. I mean, that is how we fall in love. We can't shut up and listen enough to the other one. Later in life, we change it and we talk more and we fight. But no, it's the dynamic of I'm seen, I'm heard, I'm Important enough that somebody asked my opinion. I mean, it's for free. This is so cheap. Now, of course, it takes your time, but what are leaders there for? What are we there for if we're not there to listen to our people and to make them feel important? I mean, we can actually save on bonuses, dare I say. ### Passage: Practical tips for using stories as a manager [42:46–45:42, 565 words] Note (AI): Tracey and Bernard give concrete advice: find everyday stories, tie each one to a business point, keep it short and be deliberate. Petro du Pisani, host [42:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2566): > Building upon, upon that theme, what techniques, tips, and tricks do you have for people who'd like to incorporate storytelling as their, in their repertoire of management tools? Tracey Swanepoel, guest [42:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2577): > It's about the mindset. So of course there are specific skills that you can learn about that make, you know, you can go from zero to a hundred quickly. And I think the great thing is that it's, it doesn't have to be this natural talent, you know, wow, you, it's actually a recipe. You, everybody can do this. so there are definite practical things that you can do, you know, specific story frameworks, et cetera. But even in the absence of that, it's really about thinking about stories that, things that happen every day all around us. and what is the, you know, what is the business point? That's what we call it. What is the point that, that you could use to make that, you know, to make a business point about it? I mean, my son, Zach, quite, quite a few years ago, our son, Zach, although I'd like to take ownership of him in this, but, he was busy, in about grade two, and they were, the teacher was very enthusiastic to get them to read more. Now, Zach always was a great reader, you know, so the, but the, she put in place an incentive program. She said, you know, kids, if you, the more, if you read for ten minutes a day, you'll get a little tick, and then when you've got ten ticks, you'll get a little apple on the tree, and then you'll have a full tree of apples and, and all of that, so all great. Zach, at the time, was reading for way longer than ten minutes, and then he started, as this program was introduced, only reading for ten minutes. So I said to him, but why are you reading for ten minutes? He said, because I've, I've done my ten minutes. And therein lies the problem of incentives. So, you know, stories are all around us, and I think the tip is really just to, to obviously know the basics, what is the story, to be able to make them short, to the point, and to know the point, the business point that you're making. That would be my, you know, my tips. I think, Bernard Swanepoel, guest [44:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2687): > I think those are absolutely the two key things, is the inner work environment, I mean, inner meeting, and there has to be a story with a purpose. There has to be a business reason for telling the story, and the shorter the better, and we all struggle with that, because, jeez, I mean, I need to give context, but after ten minutes, if you're still busy talking context, people have moved on. and then, I think the bold, the boldness to do, to be deliberate about it, you know, I really think Why is it that the moment we stand outside when, when the guys are smoking or, you know, when we drink coffee at the water cooler, then stories are okay, and it's al-almost as if when we walk through a set of glass doors into a boardroom, we need to be more formal. I think it's the deliberateness and the, and the go out to do that with an objective in mind is all I would add. ### Quotes > "I learned the power of, of strategy, of outwitting, not out hitting your opponent," > — Tracey Swanepoel, guest · [02:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=177) > "make people aware that, you know, a ninety-second version of a story is a hell of a lot more compelling than droning on for thirty minutes." > — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · [17:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1063) > "We are so much better together. We're so much better connecting with people who are different than us, coming from a different culture than us." > — Lisa Shippey, guest · [26:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1588) > "and we strip away the suits and the ties and the titles, and we're human beings, and we're actually all okay." > — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · [28:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1738) > "we've got the model backwards, you need to start with the receiver." > — Tracey Swanepoel, guest · [31:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1898) > "What are we there for if we're not there to listen to our people and to make them feel important? I mean, we can actually save on bonuses, dare I say." > — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · [38:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2315) > "It costs nothing, and it makes an incredible difference, but it takes time." > — Tracey Swanepoel, guest · [39:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2355) > "That's why until we haven't connected as human beings, we are actually treating each other like robots." > — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · [41:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2478) > "because leaders need to be prepared to be seen. for the humans that they are. and people love that." > — Tracey Swanepoel, guest · [48:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2913) > "My current favorite is onboarding. I just want to be onboarded once, preferably in an ocean when I'm busy drowning." > — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · [50:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=3019) > "make them understand why what they do is putting a man on the moon, not cleaning the toilets and, you know, in the NASA offices." > — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · [58:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=3528) ### Claims > "I went, I got a scholarship to a US university. And I think, you know, a lot of things that I learned on the tennis court, helped me still in the work that I do today." > — Tracey Swanepoel, guest · topic: Guest background · [02:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=167) > "I then went to, UJ, in those days it was Rao, and I studied communication. I did a BA communication. I went into advertising. and I, I think that's where I was a strategic planner, but that's where my love for turning a sort of dry, complicated business strategy into a story that would be compelling, that would be emotional, that would influence people, that's where it really started." > — Tracey Swanepoel, guest · topic: Guest background · [03:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=203) > "you know, advertising, the question you always ask is, what makes this different? What makes us different, the company? And nine times out of ten, the answer comes back as our people." > — Tracey Swanepoel, guest · topic: Communicating business strategy · [03:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=238) > "Story, segmentation, branding, and I did my MBA dissertation on that, very theoretical. I had lots of ideas, and I was really looking for a client or a place to see if any of this would work." > — Tracey Swanepoel, guest · topic: Guest background · [04:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=291) > "It's got every demographic, and one of the key challenges is how do you get a rock drill operator to understand, care about, believe, deliver, you know, on things like strategy that are conceptually In the boardroom." > — Tracey Swanepoel, guest · topic: Communicating business strategy · [05:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=323) > "I went into mining, and that coincided with the, with the time in the early eighties when the National Union of Mine Workers actually changed the whole sort of dynamic of the country," > — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · topic: Mining industry leadership · [06:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=399) > "and to cut a long story short, very briefly after I got at, Beatrix, I was asked to become the managing director of Harmony. Must have been about 1993 or four thereabout." > — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · topic: Mining industry leadership · [07:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=471) > "Harmony was, was interesting because it was earmarked for closure. Its official business plan was called Closure with Dignity. You can imagine the excitement in the life of forty thousand miners to go underground into a harsh environment, to pursue closure with dignity, you know." > — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · topic: Mining industry leadership · [08:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=485) > "Of course, it didn't close. We managed to turn it around, made it profitable, set out on a growth strategy," > — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · topic: Mining industry leadership · [08:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=501) > "and yet back at home, back in Malcolm in a free state, I got a sense that the workers were not as excited about this corporate strategy as the shareholders and my management team was." > — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · topic: Communicating business strategy · [08:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=524) > "in terms of career, working in NGOs with community, coaching, counseling, training, and all of this time just loving the idea of putting ideas and learning together with helping people." > — Lisa Shippey, guest · topic: Guest background · [10:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=648) > "Thinkspiration, which is very much an organization that's passionate about bringing humanity back into the workplace, but also striving for high performance at the same time." > — Lisa Shippey, guest · topic: Human connection at work · [11:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=662) > "helping companies communicate, distill their strategies into a compelling story. We work with the visual, creating a visual story, and then also train and capacitate leaders to tell that story orally, using, you know, oral storytelling skills." > — Tracey Swanepoel, guest · topic: Communicating business strategy · [12:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=745) > "I was a storyteller, but nobody told me. I was meant to make sense for people. I was meant to interpret corporate strategy to what is in it for me, the rock drill operator." > — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · topic: Storytelling for leaders · [13:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=824) > "At home, we're all storytellers. Look at a bunch of guys around the bright fire. I mean, they can't shut up long enough for somebody else to finish their story because my story is also worth telling. And at work, we become PowerPoint slide presenters, you know, we write reports in flippant high English that nobody understands." > — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · topic: Storytelling for leaders · [15:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=907) > "For example, when introducing a strategy, a strategy change, one can start by talking about in the past, you know, this is what happened. Then Then something happened, something's happened that's meant that a change is necessary, and then one can talk about what we're going to do now, followed by where we're going, what could become." > — Lisa Shippey, guest · topic: Communicating business strategy · [16:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=981) > "You can teach anybody. I mean, even I could be taught. It really, truly is so simple, because everybody are already, it's like saying, can you teach anybody to speak? But people are speaking." > — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · topic: Storytelling for leaders · [17:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1029) > "it's more about what we have to unlearn sometimes. You know, stories are all around us, but when you, when you walk into the workplace, you sort of, there's almost this switch off the human button and go into abstract language," > — Tracey Swanepoel, guest · topic: Storytelling for leaders · [18:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1088) > "Also learning how to ask questions, to draw stories from others. Tell me about a time when, tell me about your experience. Those kind of stories just elicit the most fantastic stories that we can pass on." > — Lisa Shippey, guest · topic: Storytelling for leaders · [19:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1151) > "Think about your audience and then how you're gonna connect, you know. If you wanna convey a specific message, you know, in what context you're gonna do it, you know." > — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · topic: Storytelling for leaders · [19:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1195) > "You tell a success story which says, you know, this is Jane. Jane is just like you. She also had a problem. She then did whatever she did and now her problem's resolved." > — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · topic: Storytelling for leaders · [20:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1214) > "And the, the CEO of that company at the time sort of looked me up and down and said, so, lovey, do you really expect me to believe you're gonna go out there and change the way that my mines operate?" > — Tracey Swanepoel, guest · topic: Mining industry leadership · [22:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1368) > "but it was about what, you know, Harmony's purpose was, to change the industry, to do things differently, to turn conventional thinking on its head." > — Tracey Swanepoel, guest · topic: Mining industry leadership · [24:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1480) > "just being immersed into another culture through friendships and relationships made me realize, the, the richness of cross-cultural connection, the importance of relationships, the importance of not taking anyone at face value," > — Lisa Shippey, guest · topic: Human connection at work · [26:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1566) > "Yes, I am an ex-CEO of a mining company. Yes, I am white and privileged and rich, and they're not. But there's always a level where you truly are just human beings, you know?" > — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · topic: Human connection at work · [28:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1697) > "out of that came a set of circumstances which got me into the mining industry, and at the end of it, I really, truly got standing applause." > — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · topic: Storytelling for leaders · [28:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1722) > "Okay, so we were called the Elimination of Fatalities Task Force, and we spoke to people at, I think I visited each and every operation across the whole of South Africa." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Listening to employees · [29:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1762) > "And having spoken to so many people, I think over 2000 conversations, you know, you sort of realize that if you want to change anything or put any sort of corporate strategy into place, you have to think like you're speaking to those guys." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Listening to employees · [30:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1824) > "I came to exactly the point that you've made, is that you actually need to start, we've got the model backwards, you need to start with the receiver. Where are they coming from? What are they thinking about?" > — Tracey Swanepoel, guest · topic: Communicating business strategy · [31:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1893) > "And it, it stayed with me throughout my career that deeper into the organization, firstly, the people care, and secondly, they actually have got some really significant practical suggestions, as per your own story." > — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · topic: Listening to employees · [33:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2020) > "because that, that disconnect is the misalignment or the lack of alignment which is costing companies billions and billions and billions of rand, because we say we are going north, and we forgot to tell our people, and they don't know where north is," > — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · topic: Communicating business strategy · [34:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2073) > "mine was more psychology, and social psychology just emphasizes again, again, the way to dismantle stereotypes is actually really to get closer to the person and hear a little bit about their stories." > — Lisa Shippey, guest · topic: Human connection at work · [35:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2115) > "And if you ask them to tell their stories, they'll tell you where the next fatality is coming from. They'll tell you, and then you can prevent it." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Listening to employees · [37:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2268) > "But no, it's the dynamic of I'm seen, I'm heard, I'm Important enough that somebody asked my opinion. I mean, it's for free. This is so cheap." > — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · topic: Listening to employees · [38:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2301) > "I often think, you know, when, when we, whenever we start an intervention, the first thing we do is we, we conduct listening sessions, very similar to, to what you've described," > — Tracey Swanepoel, guest · topic: Listening to employees · [38:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2325) > "And then he shares with me how his brother, who worked on Unicel, died on Unicel soon after Wes Harmony took it over. Now this is his story." > — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · topic: Human connection at work · [40:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2439) > "Learn to listen, because that is that experience now. And then learn to communicate better through using stories." > — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · topic: Listening to employees · [42:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2526) > "Zach, at the time, was reading for way longer than ten minutes, and then he started, as this program was introduced, only reading for ten minutes. So I said to him, but why are you reading for ten minutes? He said, because I've, I've done my ten minutes. And therein lies the problem of incentives." > — Tracey Swanepoel, guest · topic: Storytelling for leaders · [44:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2655) > "the tip is really just to, to obviously know the basics, what is the story, to be able to make them short, to the point, and to know the point, the business point that you're making." > — Tracey Swanepoel, guest · topic: Storytelling for leaders · [44:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2675) > "There has to be a business reason for telling the story, and the shorter the better, and we all struggle with that," > — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · topic: Storytelling for leaders · [44:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2697) > "The, the partner that we work with in Australia, the material that we teach and present, it's, it's called Anecdote." > — Lisa Shippey, guest · topic: Storytelling for leaders · [45:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2742) > "the important points in a story is firstly you want a, a time or place marker. It's great to talk about when or where something happened, then it's great to talk about, a series of events, then an interaction between people, and then possibly a wow moment or a realization that is connected to a business point." > — Lisa Shippey, guest · topic: Storytelling for leaders · [46:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2761) > "when you're telling stories, nine times out of ten, you are going to reveal something about yourself. So it's, it's quite, so you've got to be prepared to be vulnerable," > — Tracey Swanepoel, guest · topic: Authenticity and vulnerability · [48:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2892) > "anybody who is prepared to be authentic and, and tell stories will discover that that vulnerability actually draws people. People see the real human being." > — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · topic: Authenticity and vulnerability · [49:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2987) > "the general secretary of the NUM At the time stood up, to, to talk strategy, and there to my absolute, my heart nearly stopped beating was the, the Harmony Visual Strategy Map that we'd put together," > — Tracey Swanepoel, guest · topic: Communicating business strategy · [52:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=3142) > "after the intervention, the CFO, who was a very smart, clever, strong professional, she said, if I'm honest, I now get it for the first time." > — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · topic: Communicating business strategy · [53:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=3181) > "we create these visual strategy maps that, that Tracey has referred to, which, put the, the, the culture and the strategic imperatives, if you like, of an organization into a visual compelling picture." > — Lisa Shippey, guest · topic: Communicating business strategy · [55:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=3356) > "So I think listening, storytelling, and focusing on strengths are, are for me the three underpins of creating a, a, a different and better place to work." > — Tracey Swanepoel, guest · topic: Human connection at work · [57:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=3433) > "Now, if you add to that the key role, in my opinion, of a leader is to inspire hope, to make us dream about being the rainbow nation." > — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · topic: Storytelling for leaders · [57:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=3478) > "We think it's time to apply that to leadership practice. We think it's time to take what is being learned about people and how to lead and make it practical and get serious about that too." > — Lisa Shippey, guest · topic: Human connection at work · [59:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=3576) > "We are allowing the consultants to tell scary stories and we should actually start to tell empowering stories." > — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · topic: Storytelling for leaders · [59:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=3599) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) In this episode Petro du Pisani speaks to Tracey Swanepoel, Bernard Swanepoel and Lisa Shippey from Thinkspiration. They explore how storytelling can be used to explain business strategy and how to connect with people at various levels in an organisation. Storytelling is a skill that everyone can learn - it helps people to understand each other and the organisations they work in better. Thinkspiration is a company that helps leaders to tell stories, so that their strategy is easy to understand. This results in improved employee engagement, motivation and produces improved results. This episode is full of personal life-changing stories and helpful tips and tricks on how to incorporate storytelling in your work-life. Music Used : Umlungu | https://johnbartmann.com Visit Thinkspiration's website · Storytelling for Leaders · Connect with Petro · Solid Gold Podcasts ## #014 Riaan Wolmarans | Travel books: Memories and aspirations - Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/014-travel-books-memories-and-aspirations/ - Date: 2019-12-03 (as at 2019-12-03) - Guest: Riaan Wolmarans - Host: Petro du Pisani - Themes: Books and travel, Memories of places, Fantasy and fictional worlds, Post-apocalyptic fiction, Travel guides and writing, Reading habits, Holiday reading lists - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/991977 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Riaan Wolmarans - Lived in London for three years; as a high school boy worked at a public library and joined its book selection committee; wrote large parts of the 2006 Fodor's Guide to South Africa. In their own words: > "I did live in London for three years, so another amazing city, just like New York, obviously, but, and also a city that features in so many books and films and television shows." [06:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=360) > "So as a high school boy, I started working at the public library, and I was so into books and reading that the librarians, the kindly librarians, said, well, you know, since you read such a lot, we may as well make you part of the book selection committee for the library." [16:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=966) > "It's the Fodor's Guide to South Africa from 2006. This is the edition that I brought, and the fun thing about this book is that I wrote large parts of it back in 2005, and for this edition to come out the next year." [27:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1676) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) An end-of-year book discussion in which host Petro and her friend Riaan Wolmarans talk about books tied to places: cities they have visited, places they want to visit, fantasy and post-apocalyptic worlds, and travel guides. The pair move from New York and London through Europe and Africa to outer space. Riaan brings personal memories of reading on holiday, his teenage work on a library selection committee and his experience writing large parts of a Fodor's guide to South Africa. Petro shares her reading habits, including abandoning books, and both reveal their holiday reading lists. **Key ideas** - Riaan argues that two books can show the same city in very different lights, citing American Psycho and Extremely Loud and Incredibly Close on New York. ([00:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=47) [01:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=107) [03:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=183)) - Riaan says physical books hold memories of where and when they were read, so his shelves feel like old friends. ([08:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=489) [08:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=492) [08:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=498) [08:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=509)) - Riaan uses a Johannesburg novel to argue that a fragmented city built on gold and immigration can come together, as the book's stories do. ([12:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=750) [12:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=770) [13:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=812)) - Petro holds that it is fine to abandon a book; she keeps an 'Abandoned' shelf on Goodreads. ([18:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1112) [18:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1112)) - Riaan says fiction can depict worlds too large or costly to film, pointing to Star Trek novels. ([19:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1183) [20:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1247)) - Riaan values printed travel guides for quick reference and as keepsakes filled with ticket stubs. ([24:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1490) [24:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1495) [25:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1525)) - From writing a Fodor's guide, Riaan says good travel writing must paint a picture rather than list attractions. ([27:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1671) [27:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1676) [28:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1706)) **Lessons** - Petro suggests giving yourself permission to stop reading a book you are not enjoying rather than forcing yourself to finish it. ([18:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1112) [18:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1112)) - Petro reads business books chapter by chapter so she can apply what she learns. ([18:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1102)) - Riaan recommends carrying a paper travel guide, which doubles as a record of the trip. ([24:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1495) [25:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1525)) - Riaan's travel-writing experience suggests description that paints a picture persuades readers to visit more than listings do. ([27:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1671) [28:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1706)) - Petro notes that even a novel that does not make you want to visit a country can teach you about it. ([15:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=927)) **Who it's for:** Readers looking for book recommendations linked to cities and travel, fans of fantasy, science fiction and post-apocalyptic fiction, and people curious about travel guides and how travel writing works. **Facts stated in the episode** - Petro says the Los Angeles library that The Library Book describes burnt down in 1986, losing millions of books. ([04:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=259)) - Riaan lived in London for three years. ([06:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=360)) - Riaan wrote large parts of the 2006 Fodor's Guide to South Africa in 2005. ([27:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1676)) - Riaan says Johannesburg is one of few cities not built around a major river, having grown from gold mining. ([12:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=770)) - Petro's first Audible audiobook was Artemis by Andy Weir, author of The Martian. ([21:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1274)) - Petro bought David Allen's Getting Things Done for her team ahead of the next year. ([30:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1809)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: What novels show different sides of New York?** A: Riaan contrasts American Psycho, which he says paints a grim, money-driven picture of the city, with Extremely Loud and Incredibly Close, a post-9/11 story he calls beautiful. Petro adds City of Girls by Elizabeth Gilbert, set in 1940s New York. ([00:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=47) [01:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=66) [01:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=107) [03:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=183) [04:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=241)) **Q: Are there fantasy books set in an alternative London?** A: Riaan recommends China Mieville's Un Lun Dun and Neil Gaiman's Neverwhere; Petro mentions Ben Aaronovitch's Rivers of London series about constable Peter Grant. ([06:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=378) [07:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=452)) **Q: Is it okay to stop reading a book you don't like?** A: Petro says life is too short to force yourself to finish a book and keeps an 'Abandoned' shelf. Riaan abandons books less often out of guilt, but says you shouldn't feel bad dropping a book your partner bought. ([18:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1112) [18:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1112) [19:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1142)) **Q: Why carry a paper travel guide when you have a phone?** A: Riaan says a printed guide is quick to check at a museum or for nearby attractions, and becomes a keepsake with ticket stubs as bookmarks and marked passages. ([24:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1490) [24:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1495) [25:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1525)) **Q: What is a good book about Johannesburg?** A: Riaan recommends a city novel spanning more than a hundred years of tales about Johannesburg as a city of immigrants built around gold, whose fragmented stories come together. ([12:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=750) [12:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=770) [13:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=812)) **Q: What makes travel writing hard?** A: Riaan, who wrote much of the 2006 Fodor's Guide to South Africa, says anyone can list museums and prices; the challenge is painting a picture in a few words that makes a distant reader want to visit. ([27:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1671) [27:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1676) [28:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1706)) **Q: What post-apocalyptic books are worth reading?** A: Riaan points to Stephen King's The Stand, one of the first he read as a teenager, and Max Brooks's World War Z, told through news and military reports and featuring South Africa. ([22:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1374) [23:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1439) [24:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1456)) **Q: What book shows places that sound invented but are real?** A: Riaan recommends Atlas Obscura, saying its entries sound like fantasy novel titles yet are real places you can visit. ([24:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1490) [26:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1593) [26:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1593)) ### Passage: Two books, two sides of New York [00:47–03:08, 441 words] Note (AI): Riaan contrasts American Psycho and Extremely Loud and Incredibly Close with his own post-9/11 visit, showing how books frame a city before and after travel. Riaan Wolmarans, guest [00:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=47): > The first city that came to mind for me is New York City, because it's a city that features in so many aspects of nonfiction and fiction, of course, and it's a city that I've also visited before. Which was an amazing experience, but it has obviously many sides because it's such a complicated and big city, and a book that I read before I went to New York City was Great Eastern Alice's American Psycho, which is quite famous in its own regard for being a terrifying novel to read. It's very hard reading at times. I mean, I'm a big fan of horror, but the kind of graphic descriptions in this book of murder and mayhem, and it can be quite severe. Petro du Pisani, host [01:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=89): > And I can't read any gory stuff at all, so there's a, there's a big reason why I don't read half of Stephen King's novels, because there's a lot of gore involved, and I just can't, I can't cope with it. Riaan Wolmarans, guest [01:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=99): > But what this book does, it shows you, because the, the main character is a, a Wall Street banker, and he's a complete psycho also, of course. It paints a very grim picture of the hard, human-less side of New York, emotionless side. It was all about money and greed and fame, et cetera. So It's one picture of New York that it's painted through this one book, but then you actually go there and you discover how amazing the city is. And we went there after 9/11 and we visited the site where the Twin Towers had stood. At the time, there was just a hole in the ground and they were still busy developing the idea of the memorial that's gone up there since. And it was a very emotional moment to visit that scene. And then after my visit to New York, I read Jonathan Safran Foer's book, Extremely Loud and Incredibly Close, which was also made into a film. Well, as was American Psycho, of course. So Extremely Loud and Incredibly Close tells a post-9/11 story of a, of a nine-year-old boy whose dad died in 9/11, and then, he's trying to get through life, this boy with his mom, and he finds a mystery key. And then, of course, the key needs a door, and he goes on a mission to find The door that matches the key, and that's how amazing, tragic, funny, and intensely moving tale, as the spectator called it, unfolds, and it really is an astoundingly beautiful book. So it was interesting to show how two books can paint a city in two different lights so beautifully. ### Passage: Paper books as memories and the Amsterdam bookshop [08:09–09:48, 357 words] Note (AI): Riaan explains why physical books hold travel memories for him, illustrated by finding the same unmarked Amsterdam bookshop on two separate visits. Riaan Wolmarans, guest [08:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=489): > I wanted to talk about books on holiday, because one thing I love about reading paper books, which I almost exclusively do, unlike Pietro, is the fact that when I see them on my bookshelves, I, they feel like old friends. I can look at a book and I know that book I spent hours reading on a train through Japan, or On a boat in Halong Bay in Vietnam, and those tactile memories are very important for me in terms of how I remember the books and when I read them and how much I enjoyed them or not. So the first destination abroad that I visited outside South Africa was, the Netherlands in Amsterdam in the beginning of the 2000s. And the very first time I went to Amsterdam, I one day thought, let me see if I can find a bookshop, but I kind of couldn't really on the first day find an English language one because, you know, Europe is weird that way. I just walked and walked and walked one day and looking at the city, and I found suddenly stumbled upon a very unmarked bookshop, really. It's not, not a big sign outside or anything, but they actually had all these books in a kind of a, over several stories in an old house, and including many English books. And I found a book by Steve Alton called Meg. Now, this is complete schlocky holiday reading. It's about a giant prehistoric shark that awakens in the deep. And terrifies the world. But, you know, it was, it was great for holiday reading. So that was great. And then a couple of years later, I visited Amsterdam again, and I thought, let me see if I can find the same bookshop. And I did. And one of the first shelves I looked, there was the sequel to, to Meg called The Trench, which I then also bought and read on holiday. So, I mean, these two books are really not by quality, but they completely take me back to those visits to Amsterdam because they just bring back those memories so beautifully. ### Passage: Johannesburg as a city of immigrants [12:30–13:46, 264 words] Note (AI): Riaan links a novel's structure to Johannesburg's gold-mining origins and its mix of cultures, making a local reading recommendation with social commentary. Riaan Wolmarans, guest [12:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=750): > I do, I do have a book around Johannesburg. This is a new one, just lest you think I unread old books. It's by Harry Colmer. it's called A Thousand Tales of Johannesburg, a City Novel. So this is a book that really brings together the idea of Johannesburg being a city of immigrants, because Johannesburg is an interesting city in many ways. It's one of the few cities around the world that's not built around a major river, for example, because of course it was a city built around gold, and it brought people from all over the world in, in the hunt for gold. The mining industry is how the city got started. And years down the line, we still have such a mix of people from across the world living here. This book really explores what it means to have all these legacies of different cultures in the city, telling it through the tales of, several people and spanning more than a hundred years. It is a, it's really a book that in the beginning feels a bit fragmented to start reading, because it's all these different tales presented to you. Seemingly quite randomly, but as the book progresses, they all start fitting together quite beautifully, and I think the way that the book comes together is similar to the way that our society in Johannesburg can come together, even though we are fragmented in terms of religion and race and culture, in the same way that the book brings these stories together, you know, so Johannesburgers can also come together. ### Passage: Reviewing books for the public library as a teenager [15:44–16:51, 262 words] Note (AI): A personal story of how Riaan joined a library's book selection committee in high school, and how one book carries that memory. Riaan Wolmarans, guest [15:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=944): > We spoke about books that can take you back to a place you've visited before, for example, holiday trip, but books can also take you back to a time in your own past and evoke certain memories, and I brought along today Stephen King's book, The Tommyknockers. and I mean, it's quite a good book in its own right, and it's definitely worth reading, an interesting kind of take on the idea of alien visitation and all of those things. So as a high school boy, I started working at the public library, and I was so into books and reading that the librarians, the kindly librarians, said, well, you know, since you read such a lot, we may as well make you part of the book selection committee for the library. So, which means I got to take a copy of brand new books home to read, and then fill out a form to help the library decide whether to buy this book for the library. And this book by Stephen King was one of the very first books that I got to, to review in that sense for the library. the one I brought today is, it's actually one of the original editions with, its specific cover that's quite beautiful. And then when I saw this book in a bookshop once, I was like, this is the copy I must own because this takes me back to that very happy time of me working in the library, and this book is really quite precious to me because of that reason. ### Passage: Why paper travel guides and Atlas Obscura [24:50–26:46, 387 words] Note (AI): Riaan sets out the practical and sentimental case for carrying printed travel guides and introduces a book of real but unusual destinations. Riaan Wolmarans, guest [24:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1490): > Why, yes, I do, and I'm glad you asked. We have traveled extensively, and we always buy travel guides, the likes of a Fodor's guide or Time Out or any of those books, because we find it incredibly useful to have a, an actual paper book with us when traveling. There's something quite nice about just whipping out the book and going to the right page to check up on the history of a museum that you are visiting, or just to find the next attraction in the same neighborhood that you might want to visit. And, I mean, yes, obviously your phone and Google, those things have made it quite easy, but there's something to be said about having an actual travel guide in your backpack, and they become little memories of that time that you were visiting a city, because The bookmarks are ticket stubs and subway tickets and things like that, and there's marked passages of museums that he went to that turned out to be closed or that were really cool that you might want to go back to. But I didn't specifically bring any of those travel books today. I brought... I looked at our travel shelf and I thought, let me bring something that our listeners might actually not have heard of, but it's the most amazing book. It's called Atlas Obscura by Joshua For, Dylan Thurus, and Ella Morton. It's quite a beautiful book. It's called Atlas Obscura, An Explorer's Guide to the World's Hidden Wonders. And what it does is you can basically open to any page, and it shows you the most amazing things and locations around the world that it sounds like fantasy, but these things all exist in our actual real world. I mean, I opened randomly to a page, and there's the Waitomo glowworm caves and the cargo cults of Tanna. Watson, Lakeside, Post Forest, Uranium City, the Saskatchewan Twisted Trees, I'm just paging through the book. You can see the Museum of Clean. It just, all of these things sound like actual titles of amazing fantasy novels, and yet they are real places on earth that you can go and visit. So, yeah, in terms of inspiring places that you might want to go visit, Atlas Obscura is a very good guide to that. ### Passage: Writing the Fodor's Guide to South Africa [27:51–28:53, 216 words] Note (AI): Riaan describes the challenge of travel writing from the author's side: going beyond listings to make a distant reader want to visit. Riaan Wolmarans, guest [27:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1671): > Okay, and yes, on travel guides, I did bring along one book. It's the last one that I brought today. It's the Fodor's Guide to South Africa from 2006. This is the edition that I brought, and the fun thing about this book is that I wrote large parts of it back in 2005, and for this edition to come out the next year. It was a very interesting experience because we're talking about travel writing and everything, but To actually have to be the one to do the travel writing teaches you such a lot about looking at the attractions of your city, country, the places people might want to visit, and then trying to figure out not to just write a listing of these things. I mean, anyone can write a list of museums and places to go to and opening hours and prices, but how do you then, in only a few words sometimes, paint a picture of this place that will make someone living in Indonesia, maybe, or New York City, or London, or Amsterdam go, well, you know what, I really should go to Johannesburg to see the following things, because it sounds actually really attractive. So that was a rare bit of insight from the other side about travel writing. ### Quotes > "it's almost like comfort eating or comfort food for your ears." > — Petro du Pisani, host · [05:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=331) > "when I see them on my bookshelves, I, they feel like old friends." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · [08:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=498) > "It's a very dangerous place to live. There are so many murders in Scandinavia." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · [11:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=663) > "Life is too short to start off with a book and go, oh, no, I don't want to read this, and then force yourself to finish it." > — Petro du Pisani, host · [18:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1112) > "places we'd like to go to that we'll never be able to go to." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · [21:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1316) > "I read these books, and I actually think I'd be a pretty good survivor. You know, if you stick with me, I think you'll be okay." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · [22:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1348) > "so it's always nice to read about home, even if you're talking about the end of the world." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · [24:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1456) > "Yes, there are places I'd like to go, but hopefully don't have to go." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · [24:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1475) > "all of these things sound like actual titles of amazing fantasy novels, and yet they are real places on earth that you can go and visit." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · [26:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1593) > "anyone can write a list of museums and places to go to and opening hours and prices, but how do you then, in only a few words sometimes, paint a picture of this place" > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · [28:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1706) ### Claims > "a book that I read before I went to New York City was Great Eastern Alice's American Psycho, which is quite famous in its own regard for being a terrifying novel to read." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Memories of places · [01:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=66) > "It paints a very grim picture of the hard, human-less side of New York, emotionless side. It was all about money and greed and fame, et cetera." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Books and travel · [01:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=107) > "And we went there after 9/11 and we visited the site where the Twin Towers had stood. At the time, there was just a hole in the ground and they were still busy developing the idea of the memorial that's gone up there since." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Memories of places · [02:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=125) > "So it was interesting to show how two books can paint a city in two different lights so beautifully." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Books and travel · [03:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=183) > "It's a very strong female, feminine type book, and I would definitely recommend people to read that as well." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Books and travel · [04:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=241) > "is The Library Book by Susan Orlean. And it's all about the library in Los Angeles that burnt down in 1986. And we sort of missed that story because the Challenger blew up in around about the same time, so it wasn't a huge front page story, but they lost millions of books" > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Books and travel · [04:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=259) > "But the way in which it's, it described, it's almost like comfort eating or comfort food for your ears." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Books and travel · [05:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=328) > "I did live in London for three years, so another amazing city, just like New York, obviously, but, and also a city that features in so many books and films and television shows." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Memories of places · [06:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=360) > "The one is by China Mieville called Unlondon, spelled U N L U N D U N, which in very Mieville fashion creates an incredibly detailed and well-configured, well-thought-out alternative London called Unlondon, which you obviously find through a secret entrance." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Fantasy and fictional worlds · [06:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=378) > "the first book in the series is called Rivers of London, and it all follows the adventures of a constable called Peter Grant," > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Fantasy and fictional worlds · [07:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=452) > "one thing I love about reading paper books, which I almost exclusively do, unlike Pietro, is the fact that when I see them on my bookshelves, I, they feel like old friends." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Reading habits · [08:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=492) > "those tactile memories are very important for me in terms of how I remember the books and when I read them and how much I enjoyed them or not." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Memories of places · [08:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=509) > "And then a couple of years later, I visited Amsterdam again, and I thought, let me see if I can find the same bookshop. And I did. And one of the first shelves I looked, there was the sequel to, to Meg called The Trench, which I then also bought and read on holiday." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Memories of places · [09:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=567) > "What I liked most about the book was that it actually had a geological twist to it. For somebody who studied geology and geophysics, the unwinding of the story actually has something to do with geology." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Books and travel · [10:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=610) > "there's nobody like a Nordic writer that can describe the absolute stark landscape of those countries, and I like reading those books." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Books and travel · [10:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=655) > "The latest book in the series is called The Labyrinth of the Spirits, and this, by this time, the story had caught up to 1950s Barcelona, and it is a most amazing series of books," > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Books and travel · [11:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=687) > "he also wrote a book called Dead Europe, where, again, it's a young Australian man called Isaac who starts traveling through Europe, and as he travels along, he learns things about himself and his past," > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Books and travel · [11:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=719) > "It's one of the few cities around the world that's not built around a major river, for example, because of course it was a city built around gold, and it brought people from all over the world in, in the hunt for gold." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Books and travel · [12:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=770) > "I think the way that the book comes together is similar to the way that our society in Johannesburg can come together, even though we are fragmented in terms of religion and race and culture," > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Books and travel · [13:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=812) > "the way they describe the rains rolling in over the plains, makes you want to visit Botswana. And I would recommend anybody to visit Botswana because it's a beautiful country with a lot of very friendly people." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Books and travel · [14:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=871) > "I don't know if, if the book will make me want to go to Nigeria, but at least I know a bit more about the country after reading the book." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Books and travel · [15:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=927) > "So as a high school boy, I started working at the public library, and I was so into books and reading that the librarians, the kindly librarians, said, well, you know, since you read such a lot, we may as well make you part of the book selection committee for the library." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Reading habits · [16:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=966) > "When I read about, book recommendations in the newspaper, then I go, I make lists of those people, and I just put it added to my to-read list." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Reading habits · [16:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1017) > "And when I started reading it, I realized that it was actually romance, which is a genre I don't read at all, and it was so cheesy, and I wouldn't recommend it, but for some reason I couldn't put it down." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Reading habits · [17:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1050) > "So I can't read business books all in one go. I have to read chapter by chapter and apply the stuff that I'm learning." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Reading habits · [18:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1102) > "Life is too short to start off with a book and go, oh, no, I don't want to read this, and then force yourself to finish it. You can just put it down." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Reading habits · [18:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1112) > "you'll tend to try something that your partner bought, and then it's not necessarily to your taste, so you shouldn't feel bad about abandoning that and telling them they bought a rubbish book." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Reading habits · [19:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1142) > "many people who know it from the television series and the movies don't realize that there are literally hundreds and hundreds of books that have been written set in the same universe." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Fantasy and fictional worlds · [19:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1183) > "The scale of this book is such that, I mean, it would cost billions and billions of dollars to film, and they would never have enough special effects, I think, to create the amazing wars and battles that happen in this book." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Fantasy and fictional worlds · [20:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1247) > "the first audio book that I listened to on Audible was Artemis by Andy Weir, which is, he's the same author who wrote The Martian," > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Fantasy and fictional worlds · [21:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1274) > "it's another Stephen King book called The Stand, which is probably one of the first post-apocalyptic books I read as a teenager," > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Post-apocalyptic fiction · [22:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1374) > "the book itself is written in, in a way that it's, it's kind of a collection of little news reports and secret military reports and other kind of documentary evidence of this dramatic plague that's unfolding around the world." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Post-apocalyptic fiction · [23:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1439) > "we always buy travel guides, the likes of a Fodor's guide or Time Out or any of those books, because we find it incredibly useful to have a, an actual paper book with us when traveling." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Travel guides and writing · [24:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1495) > "they become little memories of that time that you were visiting a city, because The bookmarks are ticket stubs and subway tickets and things like that," > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Travel guides and writing · [25:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1525) > "all of these things sound like actual titles of amazing fantasy novels, and yet they are real places on earth that you can go and visit." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Travel guides and writing · [26:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1593) > "my studies were sponsored by a mining company, they told me that I would be posted in Indonesia to do exploration. So I bought a whole book on Indonesia and cultures," > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Travel guides and writing · [26:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1617) > "my travel style is normally not to read too much about the place I'm going to. I like to wander around and find stuff." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Travel guides and writing · [27:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1646) > "It's the Fodor's Guide to South Africa from 2006. This is the edition that I brought, and the fun thing about this book is that I wrote large parts of it back in 2005, and for this edition to come out the next year." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Travel guides and writing · [27:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1676) > "anyone can write a list of museums and places to go to and opening hours and prices, but how do you then, in only a few words sometimes, paint a picture of this place" > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Travel guides and writing · [28:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1706) > "Well, almost top of my pile is the book by Susan Orleans that you already mentioned, The Library Book, which I'm very keen to read because of my real interest in libraries, of course," > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Holiday reading lists · [29:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1744) > "the book that I bought for my team in preparation for next year is called Getting Things Done by David Allen," > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Holiday reading lists · [30:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1809) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) This is another special edition end-of-year book-review On Change podcast. In this episode Riaan Wolmarans (my BFF) and I talk about books about travel. Books that made us want to travel somewhere (or not). Books that we read, or were recommended to us while traveling. Books about places, real or invented. Join us on a journey around the world and through genres. We also reveal what we will be reading over the holiday season. Connect with Riaan on LinkedIn · Connect with Petro · Solid Gold Podcasts ## #013 Jo Rust | How motorcycling around Africa changes you - Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/013-how-motorcycling-around-africa-changes-you/ - Date: 2019-05-24 (as at 2019-05-24) - Guest: Jo Rust - Host: Petro du Pisani - Themes: Motorcycling around Africa, Overcoming fear and depression, Mindset and taking action, Calculated risk, Trusting strangers while travelling, Transition to coaching and psychology - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/991980 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Jo Rust - Personal Life Coach - Motorcycle adventurer and author of "Woman Alone Around Africa"; first woman to circumnavigate the African continent on a motorcycle, solo. Became a BMW Motorrad ambassador and off-road instructor; now studying psychology and coaching. In their own words: > "So then I cycled from Joburg to Cape Town, and once I finished that, I cycled around South Africa, which took me exactly a hundred days, and I think it was just short of six thousand kilometers." [08:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=494) > "but, you know, I became an off-road instructor, so now, I mean, I'm perfectly comfortable on whatever bike I ride." [17:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1078) > "when I finished that, I became an ambassador for BMW Motorrad. I became an instructor, traveled to Germany a whole bunch of times." [36:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2209) > "So I am actually studying psychology at the moment and have done a whole bunch of coaching certifications," [37:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2236) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) The host talks to Jo Rust about how riding solo around Africa changed her. Jo describes a difficult childhood marked by fear and depression, and a 2007 crisis after which she decided to become the first woman to travel around Africa on her own. She first cycled around South Africa, was robbed of her bicycle in Angola, and was then sponsored by the Angolan government to redo the trip by motorcycle. She discusses the lessons of the journey: managing fear, trusting strangers and taking calculated risks. She also talks about the depression she felt after finishing and her move into coaching and psychology. **Key ideas** - Jo says her Africa journey began as a deliberate choice to do the biggest, scariest thing she could think of, after a moment of contemplating suicide. ([06:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=386) [06:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=405) [07:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=443)) - Jo argues that you should act before the conditions are right, because there will never be enough money or time. ([00:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=31) [00:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=31) [32:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1962)) - Jo uses a ten-count rule: she lets herself feel scared, then acts without thinking. She likens it to Mel Robbins' five-second rule. ([21:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1289) [22:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1360) [23:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1415)) - Jo says a solo trip was never about being alone. Travelling alone made people more willing to approach and help her. ([26:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1577) [26:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1577) [26:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1601)) - Jo argues that biases about places like Nigeria come from hearsay. She had zero issues there and met kindness even in wartime Libya. ([27:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1647) [27:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1657) [29:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1752)) - Jo says every risk she took was calculated and guided by her gut. The host theorises that people who take calculated risks are more risk averse than most. ([33:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2004) [33:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2030) [34:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2056) [35:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2111)) - Jo describes feeling lost after seven years of single focus. She found fulfilment again in coaching and psychology. ([40:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2404) [40:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2420) [40:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2453) [41:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2480)) **Jo's ten-count rule for border crossing days** ([21:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1289) [22:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1360)) 1. Prepare in the morning so all paperwork is in order. 2. Strap everything on the bike as tight as possible, since no one is watching your things. 3. Stop about five kilometres before the border. 4. Allow yourself to feel scared for ten seconds or ten counts. 5. Once you reach ten, go and do it without thinking. **Lessons** - Jo advises taking the first step rather than waiting for the perfect time. She started with about a thousand rand and no sponsors. ([00:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=31) [32:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1962)) - Jo warns that giving yourself time to think lets you talk yourself out of acting, so act quickly. ([23:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1415) [24:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1460)) - Jo's view is that mindset, and how you respond to setbacks, matters more than trying to prevent every risk. ([18:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1110) [20:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1239)) - Jo suggests judging places through experience rather than reputation, as her time in Nigeria and Libya showed. ([27:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1657) [29:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1752)) - Jo found that reaching a long-held goal can leave a void, and that happiness depends on finding fulfilment. ([40:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2453) [41:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2480)) **Who it's for:** Aspiring overland riders and solo travellers, people dealing with fear, social anxiety or depression who want practical ways to act anyway, and anyone who is facing a life transition after reaching a big goal. **Facts stated in the episode** - Jo cycled around South Africa in exactly a hundred days, covering just short of six thousand kilometres. ([08:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=494)) - Jo says her trip around Africa covered forty-five thousand kilometres, and she took a riding course only afterwards. ([31:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1895)) - The motorcycle journey took about a year, and seven years passed from her decision to her finish. ([40:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2420)) - After her bicycle was stolen in Angola's Zaire province, authorities deployed two helicopters from the capital. ([10:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=644)) - The Angolan government sponsored Jo's entire motorcycle trip. ([12:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=727)) - Jo entered Libya only through a personal invitation from the Minister of Tourism. ([28:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1691)) - After the trip, Jo became a BMW Motorrad ambassador and an off-road instructor. ([17:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1078) [36:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2209)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Who was the first woman to ride solo around Africa on a motorcycle, and why did she do it?** A: Jo Rust says she decided to become the first woman to travel around Africa on her own after a tragic event in 2007. She had been contemplating suicide and chose instead to do the biggest, scariest thing she could think of. ([06:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=386) [07:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=443)) **Q: How did Jo Rust fund her motorcycle trip around Africa?** A: After her bicycle was stolen at knifepoint in northern Angola, the Angolan government apologised. Jo asked for help starting over, and two weeks after she sent a proposal they agreed to sponsor her entire trip. ([09:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=551) [09:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=589) [12:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=727)) **Q: How can I push through fear when I have to do something scary?** A: Jo would let herself feel scared for ten counts, then act without thinking once she reached ten. She compares this to Mel Robbins' five-second rule of counting down and then acting. ([21:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1289) [22:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1360) [23:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1415)) **Q: Is it safe to travel alone through countries like Nigeria or Libya?** A: Jo says she had absolutely zero issues in Nigeria and found people friendly and helpful. In wartime Libya, a shopkeeper filled her bag and said "Welcome to Libya." She did avoid Timbuktu after a kidnapping there. ([27:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1657) [29:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1752) [34:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2056)) **Q: How do adventurers decide which risks are acceptable?** A: Jo trusts her gut and says every risk she took was calculated. She avoided areas in the news for kidnappings. The host argues that people who take calculated risks are more risk averse than most. ([33:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2030) [34:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2056) [35:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2111)) **Q: What bike did Jo Rust ride around Africa?** A: Jo says she lost faith in her first bike, a Kawasaki KLR 650, after its engine seized. She rode the whole trip on a BMW and was comfortable on it from day one. ([16:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1013)) **Q: What do you do after achieving a huge life goal?** A: Jo says she was completely depressed for six months after finishing, because she had no routine or destination. She found happiness again once she discovered coaching and psychology, saying happiness equals fulfilment. ([40:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2404) [40:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2453) [41:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2480)) **Q: What does Jo Rust do now?** A: Jo says she is studying psychology, has done coaching certifications, and is moving away from motorcycle tours. She wants to be a coach and therapist for the rest of her life. ([37:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2236) [37:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2248) [39:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2353)) ### Passage: The tragic event that sparked the Africa journey [06:26–07:43, 187 words] Note (AI): Jo explains how a moment of contemplating suicide turned into the decision to take on the biggest, scariest challenge she could think of. Jo Rust, guest [06:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=386): > And then there was an event in my, in my life, in 2007, a very tragic event that really affected me in a massive way, and that made me decide to actually embark on this trip around Africa. I struggled with depression since a very young age, and it actually got to a point where with this tragic event, I ended up, contemplating committing suicide. And I remember this day, you know, I was sitting in a swing underneath a tree and crying my eyes out. And then, something happened. Something shifted in my mind, and it happened in an instant where I realized I don't want to do this. And as afraid as I was and as scared as I was, you know, something was telling me, well, okay, if I'm not going to take my own life, then I'm going to go the exact opposite way and do the biggest, scariest thing, take on the biggest, scariest thing that I could think of. And right in that moment, it was, well, I want to become the first woman to travel around Africa on my own. ### Passage: Robbed in Angola, then sponsored by its government [09:11–12:18, 524 words] Note (AI): The turning point of the story: an armed robbery led to a government apology and the full sponsorship of her motorcycle trip. Jo Rust, guest [09:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=551): > As fate would have it, it was one Saturday, I think it was, and in northern Angola, I was on my way to the Congo, and I got up the morning and packed up my camp, so I would sleep like kind of in the bushes, you know, in my tent. And I got on the road, and as I started pedaling, this black Ford Bucky pulled over in front of me, and four guys got out of it, which at the time, I didn't really think anything of it, because a lot of people stopped to find out, you know, who I was and what I was doing. I would kind of stick out like a sore thumb wherever I went, and it wasn't until they pulled out, knives and machetes that I realized that they weren't here for a chat. And so, long story short, they stole my bicycle and all my kit, and, I got away, so I ran away. Made a run for it with my, I still had my camelback on my back, and in it I had my phone and my passport and my card. So I was able to phone a friend in Luanda, a friend who is very well connected within the Angolan government. And within minutes, he, had phoned the local chief of police, had phoned the governor in the area, and it was absolute chaos. You know, within minutes, the nearest Police station, they deployed a car with police officers to come and find me and make sure that I'm safe, bring me back to the town. The governor of that province in the north, the Zaire province, flew in to come and make sure that I was safe, and they deployed two helicopters from the capital. I just thought to myself, this is, this is like something out of a Hollywood movie. You know, this is insane. And all for a bicycle. I mean, this is, this is absolutely insane. And, but that day changed my life because I returned back home eventually, and the Angolan government got in touch with me, wanting to apologize for what had happened. And I took a chance because they, one of their ministers contacted me, and he said to me, you know, if there's anything we can do to help you, let me know. And I was like, well, I can think of something, and I took a chance and said to him, look, I actually want to start over. And I had decided that I want to start over on a motorcycle, pretty much the moment that I saw my bicycle disappear over the horizon with these guys. And I thought, in that moment, standing in the middle of nowhere in northern Angola, I just thought to myself, there's got to be an easier way. And so he said to me, okay, well, send us a proposal and a budget, which I did. And I think it was two weeks later, he came back and he said, yes, the Angolan government will sponsor your entire trip. And that's how I started over on a motorcycle. ### Passage: The ten-count rule for border crossing days [21:29–23:56, 430 words] Note (AI): Jo gives a practical, step-by-step technique for acting despite fear and links it to Mel Robbins' five-second rule. Jo Rust, guest [21:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1289): > so what I discovered was this, Tool that I use in the sense of it's a practical thing that I did whenever I had a difficult day. Like, I knew border crossing days were always, were always quite hectic. So before I embarked on this journey, I still suffered from really bad social phobia. So it was difficult for me to be around people, and especially in strange places. And now I was in strange places every single day, around strange people every single day. And what I ended up doing is, if it was a border crossing day, I would prep myself in the morning, make sure that I had everything, all my paperwork in order, so I didn't have to worry about that. I would make sure that, you know, I'd strap everything on my bike as tight as I possibly could, because the other challenge was, of course, being on my own, there was no one to look after my stuff whilst I was sorting out my paperwork and having my passport stamps and all of that. So what I would do is when I got to the border town or just before a border, like five kilometers before it, I would stop and then I would allow myself to feel scared for ten seconds or ten counts, and the rule was once I get to ten, then go. Just do it. You know, don't think, because that's the problem is when we think too much, you know, just don't think, just do it. And it's become something that I use up until this day now. So it's changed a bit, it's evolved a bit. there's actually a woman, her name is Mel Robbins, and she came up with what she calls the five-second rule. And basically, it worked on a lot of stuff that if you're afraid of something or if you're procrastinating or whether it be having to get out of bed in the morning or going to the gym, will never feel like doing the things that we actually need to do. You'll never feel like it. You have to force yourself to, to do stuff. And so the five-second rule, what it is, is let's say your alarm goes off in the morning, you count back from five to one, five or three to one, and then you just do it. Because once you take action, you're not thinking about it anymore. So, it, so it, it works on the same premise and it's something that I use daily in my life now. ### Passage: Nigeria and Libya: kindness where it wasn't expected [27:27–29:31, 340 words] Note (AI): Jo challenges biases about dangerous places with first-hand stories of hospitality, including entering wartime Libya. Jo Rust, guest [27:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1647): > And like you mentioned Nigeria earlier, and that was one of the countries that I went like, oof, in the heart of Western Africa, and we all know about Nigeria. But we built up these biases because that's all you hear without really experiencing what a place really is about. And I had absolutely zero issues in Nigeria. People were so friendly, so helpful, and in places that you wouldn't expect, like in Libya, one of my favorite stories is in Libya, I went through Libya in a time where it was, well, it's still difficult to get through there, but it was just by pure fluke that I was allowed to get into the country, and it was only because the Minister of Tourism, who is a woman, she invited me personally into Libya, and that's the only way I could get in. And it was via, I had a friend who had a friend who has a friend who has a friend, that kind of thing. That's the only way I could get in, and it was, it was scary as hell, whilst in Tripoli, I mean, it was literally having bombs going off around you at night, and it was a war, it was in the middle of a war zone, and I remember One day, getting into a town, the town's name was Ashdaria, and I went to a little shop. I needed to get some, some stuff, cold drinks and whatever, snacks and food. And as I got to the counter, the shop owner started packing just more stuff into my bag, and I didn't really understand what was going on, but I was like, okay, I'll just allow this, because I don't quite know what to do. And after he'd filled my bag with goodies, he handed it over to me and just said, "Welcome to Libya." And I was like, this is so amazing. I had so many of those type heartwarming things that happen, moments that happen all the way around Africa. ### Passage: Balancing courage, stupidity and calculated risk [33:24–36:17, 504 words] Note (AI): Jo and the host each set out how adventurers judge acceptable risk, with Jo relying on gut instinct and avoiding known danger zones. Petro du Pisani, host [33:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2004): > So how do you balance courage against stupidity when looking for new challenges? Because a lot of people, like a lot of adventurers will just head off, okay, and, and not necessarily try and anticipate the risk that they're gonna face. So obviously you don't wanna take unreasonable risk, so how do you decide what's acceptable risk and what isn't? Jo Rust, guest [33:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2027): > Yeah, it's, I think it's a, it's a tough one. For me, it came down to, trusting my gut. So that's another thing I learned on this trip is to absolutely trust my instincts and my gut. Because it's a risk, but, you know, every risk I took was a calculated risk. So I knew exactly what I was getting myself into. But at the same time, I wouldn't, I wouldn't go into areas where on the news, they, when I was in Senegal, they had kidnapped a South African actually in Mali, in Timbuktu. So I didn't go to Timbuktu because that would be stupid. Petro du Pisani, host [34:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2068): > So. cause, yeah. It's quite an interesting theme for me, and I've, I've discussed this with somebody else before as well, is that people will say to me, how can you ride a motorcycle in urban traffic? And I'm like, if I leave at seven o'clock in the morning, everybody else is standing still, firstly. So, and everybody's on their phone. If you go past the cars, every single person's on their phone. The people who actually see you and may give you a gap are the people who are not on their phones, and those are the taxi drivers. So the people who are perceived to be the most riskiest people on the road are the guys who are actually seeing me, okay, coming through the traffic. The guys who are not seeing me are the guys who are on their phones in the car and not looking around very much. Yeah. And my theory is that people who are willing to take calculated risks Like bikers in the traffic or paragliding or whatever you're going to be doing, is you're actually much more risk averse than most people. That you actually have looked at the risks, you've weighed them up, you've made a decision, and you're just going to go with it, okay? Whereas other people sort of go blindly through life without even thinking about the risk that they're exposing you to at that point in time. That's a theory that I've got, is that people who do stuff like motorcycling and paragliding are actually better with handling risk. Yeah. Jo Rust, guest [35:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2146): > Yes, definitely. There's this interesting, thing that I read and heard recently is when you study the top successful people in the world, you'll find that all of them take risks. They are for risk. And the one percenters, the top one percent of humanity are all adventurous people. Who take risks. And because that's how you get anywhere. Everything is a risk, isn't it? Getting out of bed in the morning is a risk. ### Passage: Life after the goal: depression and finding fulfilment [40:04–41:27, 243 words] Note (AI): Jo describes the emptiness after seven years of single focus and how finding a new purpose restored her happiness. Jo Rust, guest [40:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2404): > It does. So it's, it's taken me, yeah, it's taken me thirty-five years. But, when I finished the trip around Africa, that's when I started struggling with it because I was like this dog that had been chasing about For seven years, because from the moment I decided I wanted to go around Africa until the moment I finished, it was seven years. The actual going around Africa physically took me a year, but I mean, a lot of it, the run-up to it, you know, cycling through South Africa, round South Africa, but it's a long time to have one singular focus. And it was great whilst I had that focus, but the moment I finished, it was like, okay, now what? I've caught the bus. Now what do I do? And I struggled with it for a long time. I really struggled with it. And I, I remember the first six months back home, I was completely depressed because I didn't know what to do. Every day I had this routine of getting up, packing my bike, getting on my bike and moving on to the next place. And all of a sudden I had nowhere to go. And, it's until now that I have learned In the last year or two that I've realized what I want to do, now I'm in a much happier place because, you know, happiness equals fulfillment. If we're not fulfilled, we'll never be happy. ### Quotes > "There will never be the perfect time to do it. You'll never have enough money. You'll never have enough time." > — Jo Rust, guest · [00:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=31) > "I just thought to myself, there's got to be an easier way." > — Jo Rust, guest · [11:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=717) > "I learned that people are basically good. I learned that we get what we expect." > — Jo Rust, guest · [20:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1224) > "Just do it. You know, don't think, because that's the problem is when we think too much, you know, just don't think, just do it." > — Jo Rust, guest · [22:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1373) > "You'll never feel like it. You have to force yourself to, to do stuff." > — Jo Rust, guest · [23:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1410) > "although it was a solo trip, I was never alone." > — Jo Rust, guest · [26:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1577) > "Like, I'll go around Africa forty-five thousand kilometers, come back, and then I'll go for training." > — Jo Rust, guest · [31:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1895) > "courage is knowing it might hurt and doing it anyway, and stupidity is the same, and that's why life is hard." > — Petro du Pisani, host · [33:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1992) > "Everything is a risk, isn't it? Getting out of bed in the morning is a risk." > — Jo Rust, guest · [36:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2174) > "happiness equals fulfillment. If we're not fulfilled, we'll never be happy." > — Jo Rust, guest · [41:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2483) ### Claims > "There will never be the perfect time to do it. You'll never have enough money. You'll never have enough time. You just have to do it." > — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Mindset and taking action · [00:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=31) > "So I was born on the East Rand in Johannesburg. I was born in Camden Park and grew up in Camden Park, went to school there as well." > — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Early life · [02:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=146) > "family life was a bit difficult growing up, so it wasn't a very easy environment to grow up in because I had parents and grandparents, well, adults surrounding me that were struggling with alcoholism," > — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Early life · [02:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=163) > "As a kid growing up, though, I was a very sensitive child, and I grew up with a lot of fears, so my escape was always adventure, being outside and embarking on my own adventures." > — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Overcoming fear and depression · [03:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=227) > "I've always struggled to find exactly what it is I want to do up until recently when I found my real passion in life, which is psychology." > — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Transition to coaching and psychology · [04:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=274) > "So I remember maybe at age eight or nine, I would have my brother lock me in my cupboards so I could learn, at will, so I could learn how to calm myself down, you know, and how to breathe and how to control my thinking." > — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Overcoming fear and depression · [05:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=326) > "The first thing I did was I went to Israel for a year, spent a year on a kibbutz in Israel, and that was kind of my first time outside of South Africa." > — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Early life · [05:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=354) > "I struggled with depression since a very young age, and it actually got to a point where with this tragic event, I ended up, contemplating committing suicide." > — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Overcoming fear and depression · [06:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=405) > "if I'm not going to take my own life, then I'm going to go the exact opposite way and do the biggest, scariest thing, take on the biggest, scariest thing that I could think of. And right in that moment, it was, well, I want to become the first woman to travel around Africa on my own." > — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Overcoming fear and depression · [07:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=443) > "So then I cycled from Joburg to Cape Town, and once I finished that, I cycled around South Africa, which took me exactly a hundred days, and I think it was just short of six thousand kilometers." > — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Motorcycling around Africa · [08:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=494) > "but I made it from Cape Town to Angola until my bicycle was stolen in northern Angola." > — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Motorcycling around Africa · [08:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=539) > "and it wasn't until they pulled out, knives and machetes that I realized that they weren't here for a chat. And so, long story short, they stole my bicycle and all my kit," > — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Motorcycling around Africa · [09:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=589) > "The governor of that province in the north, the Zaire province, flew in to come and make sure that I was safe, and they deployed two helicopters from the capital." > — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Motorcycling around Africa · [10:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=644) > "And I think it was two weeks later, he came back and he said, yes, the Angolan government will sponsor your entire trip. And that's how I started over on a motorcycle." > — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Motorcycling around Africa · [12:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=727) > "And I decided, well, okay, what I have to do is I have to get on this bike, ride out of the garage, and just go, go have coffee with a friend or something, just go, so I can get over the fear and get used to it." > — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Mindset and taking action · [13:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=836) > "And yeah, and the first thing he taught me to do is how to stop. So we went the whole day just stopping." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Learning to ride · [15:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=929) > "So it worked out perfectly, so I got the BMW, and I was perfectly comfortable on it from day one. Absolutely loved the bike. Yeah, so, and ended up doing the whole trip on that." > — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Motorcycling around Africa · [16:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1013) > "My, my rule of thumb has always been you have to be able to reverse the bike. You have to be able to push it back with your legs, okay?" > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Learning to ride · [17:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1042) > "but, you know, I became an off-road instructor, so now, I mean, I'm perfectly comfortable on whatever bike I ride." > — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Motorcycling around Africa · [17:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1078) > "I was well aware of the risks, and I accepted that something might happen again, which it did. But what was more important was my mindset around how to deal with that," > — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Calculated risk · [18:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1110) > "for me, it was all about the journey and allowing the journey to just happen. So I, I didn't plan a lot. I had a general idea of the route that I wanted to follow." > — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Motorcycling around Africa · [19:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1170) > "I learned how to control my fears. I learned that I'm capable of far more than I give myself credit for. I learned that people are basically good. I learned that we get what we expect." > — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Mindset and taking action · [20:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1215) > "I learned that a lot of life has to do with your mindset and being conscious of the fact that to just what extent your thoughts and emotions affect your life." > — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Mindset and taking action · [20:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1239) > "before I embarked on this journey, I still suffered from really bad social phobia. So it was difficult for me to be around people, and especially in strange places." > — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Overcoming fear and depression · [21:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1305) > "I would stop and then I would allow myself to feel scared for ten seconds or ten counts, and the rule was once I get to ten, then go. Just do it." > — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Mindset and taking action · [22:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1360) > "so the five-second rule, what it is, is let's say your alarm goes off in the morning, you count back from five to one, five or three to one, and then you just do it. Because once you take action, you're not thinking about it anymore." > — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Mindset and taking action · [23:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1415) > "because if you have given yourself time to think about it, then you give yourself time to convince yourself that, nah, maybe not today." > — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Mindset and taking action · [24:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1460) > "You shouldn't be spending your, your money on stuff. You should be spending your money on experiences and speaking to people and all that sort of stuff." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Trusting strangers while travelling · [25:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1532) > "although it was a solo trip, I was never alone. It was never about being alone. It was about allowing myself to, open up to other people" > — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Trusting strangers while travelling · [26:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1577) > "And the thing with when you're traveling on your own, people feel more comfortable approaching you, as opposed to if you are in a group." > — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Trusting strangers while travelling · [26:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1601) > "But we built up these biases because that's all you hear without really experiencing what a place really is about. And I had absolutely zero issues in Nigeria. People were so friendly, so helpful," > — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Trusting strangers while travelling · [27:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1657) > "it was only because the Minister of Tourism, who is a woman, she invited me personally into Libya, and that's the only way I could get in." > — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Trusting strangers while travelling · [28:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1691) > "And after he'd filled my bag with goodies, he handed it over to me and just said, "Welcome to Libya." And I was like, this is so amazing." > — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Trusting strangers while travelling · [29:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1752) > "I've always been fascinated with going to Gabon and experiencing an actual jungle, like you would see in the Amazon. And I got to experience that," > — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Motorcycling around Africa · [30:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1806) > "Like, I'll go around Africa forty-five thousand kilometers, come back, and then I'll go for training." > — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Motorcycling around Africa · [31:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1895) > "When I started out, I didn't have the money. In, in fact, I had like maybe a thousand rand to my name, and I couldn't get sponsors because nobody believed I could do it" > — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Mindset and taking action · [32:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1962) > "For me, it came down to, trusting my gut. So that's another thing I learned on this trip is to absolutely trust my instincts and my gut. Because it's a risk, but, you know, every risk I took was a calculated risk." > — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Calculated risk · [33:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2030) > "when I was in Senegal, they had kidnapped a South African actually in Mali, in Timbuktu. So I didn't go to Timbuktu because that would be stupid." > — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Calculated risk · [34:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2056) > "And my theory is that people who are willing to take calculated risks Like bikers in the traffic or paragliding or whatever you're going to be doing, is you're actually much more risk averse than most people." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Calculated risk · [35:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2111) > "when you study the top successful people in the world, you'll find that all of them take risks. They are for risk." > — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Calculated risk · [35:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2152) > "when I finished that, I became an ambassador for BMW Motorrad. I became an instructor, traveled to Germany a whole bunch of times." > — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Motorcycling around Africa · [36:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2209) > "So I am actually studying psychology at the moment and have done a whole bunch of coaching certifications," > — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Transition to coaching and psychology · [37:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2236) > "my purpose, I believe, is to take what I've learned and experienced over the years and to pay that forward to other people and to help people through whatever it might be that's holding them back in their lives." > — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Transition to coaching and psychology · [37:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2248) > "If you're completely fighting with yourself the whole time, then you must be doing something wrong. You're on the wrong path somewhere." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Mindset and taking action · [38:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2312) > "because like I said, I love motorcycling, but being a coach and a therapist is what I want to do for the rest of my life." > — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Transition to coaching and psychology · [39:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2353) > "because from the moment I decided I wanted to go around Africa until the moment I finished, it was seven years. The actual going around Africa physically took me a year," > — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Motorcycling around Africa · [40:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2420) > "And I, I remember the first six months back home, I was completely depressed because I didn't know what to do." > — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Overcoming fear and depression · [40:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2453) > "now I'm in a much happier place because, you know, happiness equals fulfillment. If we're not fulfilled, we'll never be happy." > — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Transition to coaching and psychology · [41:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2480) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) In this episode Petro speaks to Jo Rust, Personal Life Coach, Motorcycle adventurer and author of the book "Woman Alone Around Africa." Jo holds the record as the first woman to have circumnavigated the entire African continent on a motorcycle, solo. Jo is now studying psychology and is a practical life coach. This episode explores why Jo felt the need to ride around countries and continents on two wheels, and what she learnt about herself in the process. Music Used : Sunny looks good on you, by Midnight North found at Youtube's Audio Library Connect with Jo · Connect with Petro · Solid Gold Podcasts ## #011 Riaan Wolmarans | Dusting off the bookshelf - Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/011-dusting-off-the-bookshelf/ - Date: 2018-12-14 (as at 2018-12-14) - Guest: Riaan Wolmarans - Host: Petro du Pisani - Themes: Books that changed lives, Genre and speculative fiction, Abandoning books guilt-free, Reading habits and tracking, Why people should read, Journalism and reading, Books as gifts - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/991985 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Riaan Wolmarans - journalist, editor - Worked part-time at a library while studying before his journalism career took over; works in a newsroom; collects classic comic books; lived in the UK for a few years. In their own words: > "my mother was a primary school teacher, so she ensured that by the time I went to grade one, I was already able to read," [01:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=84) > "And that happened, and then I did work part-time at the library in between studying and doing other jobs. And throughout all that time, I've kept reading. I mean, the library job I had to go after a while because my journalism career took over all that time." [01:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=113) > "I'm also a collector of classic comic books, among my many other little oddities. So it was quite a good book for me to read just because it very much gave me a bit of a window into the 1930s, 1940s, and 50s in the comic book industry in New York City," [16:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=996) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Host Petro du Pisani and his best friend, journalist Riaan Wolmarans, work through the categories of a Grant Snider cartoon: books they couldn't put down, couldn't pick up, gave each other, took on holiday, and that changed their lives. Riaan brings a lifelong reader's perspective, shaped by working in a library and later in a newsroom. He argues against ranking genre fiction below literary fiction, champions speculative fiction as an escape from daily news, and describes how he catalogues his home library. The host mixes fiction and self-help picks, mentions a hoped-for PhD on change integrity, and closes with reasons to read, including a study he cites on reading and longevity. **Key ideas** - Riaan argues there should be little distinction between genre fiction and so-called serious literature; a good story keeps you reading whatever its genre. ([06:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=366) [06:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=391) [22:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=1355)) - Both speakers say abandoning a book that does not grip you is acceptable and should carry no guilt. ([08:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=514) [09:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=541) [10:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=621) [10:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=637)) - Riaan says speculative fiction gives him an escape from the death, blood and corruption of daily news work. ([24:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=1494) [27:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=1622) [27:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=1638)) - The host suggests books matter most at particular times in your life, such as Terry Pratchett at university. ([05:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=335)) - Riaan admires the short story because writing it demands a high level of craft in a small space. ([36:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2178) [46:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2772)) - Riaan warns that reading websites shortens attention spans and does not teach language, a problem he sees in young newsroom recruits. ([46:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2780) [46:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2797) [47:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2821)) - The host cites a Yale study linking daily book reading to longer life and argues that successful people are readers. ([35:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2148) [48:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2896) [50:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=3019)) **Lessons** - The host gives himself permission to stop a book after five to ten percent if it is not working, and files it on an abandoned shelf. ([10:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=621) [10:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=637)) - Riaan charges his phone in the kitchen overnight so that only a book is within reach in bed. ([46:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2772) [49:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2994)) - The host suggests setting an achievable target such as fifty books a year, as time better spent than social media. ([49:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2949) [50:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=3004)) - When buying books as gifts, Riaan suggests supporting someone's new hobby or passing on a book that brought you joy. ([41:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2502) [41:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2517)) - Cataloguing tools help: Riaan uses LibraryThing and the host tracks reading and a to-read list on Goodreads. ([43:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2613) [45:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2746)) **Who it's for:** Keen readers looking for recommendations across fantasy, crime, literary fiction and self-help, people who feel guilty about unfinished books, and anyone curious how a journalist uses fiction to cope with the news cycle. **Facts stated in the episode** - The host cites a Yale study of 3,635 people over 50: those reading books 30 minutes daily lived an average of 23 months longer. ([48:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2896)) - Riaan says his household owns more than two thousand books. ([44:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2676)) - The host has a Goodreads to-read list of about 130 books. ([45:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2746)) - The host and Riaan lived together for about three years in Melville. ([11:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=690)) - The host read about ten percent of Walter Isaacson's Benjamin Franklin biography in a month before giving up. ([08:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=483)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Is it okay to stop reading a book I'm not enjoying?** A: Yes, both say so. Riaan says you should never feel guilty about abandoning a book, and the host stops after five to ten percent if he isn't getting into it. ([09:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=541) [10:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=621) [10:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=637)) **Q: Is genre fiction like fantasy or sci-fi less worthwhile than literary fiction?** A: Riaan argues there shouldn't be much distinction. He prefers the term speculative fiction and says the idea that it is cheap and trashy is not true. ([06:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=366) [22:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=1355)) **Q: Why would a journalist read fantasy novels?** A: Riaan says the books let him escape a news cycle full of death, blood and corruption, and give him some hope back for humankind. ([27:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=1622) [27:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=1638)) **Q: Does reading online count as much as reading books?** A: Riaan argues it doesn't. He says reading websites teaches little about language, shortens attention spans and leads to skipping. He cites a professor who banned technology from his classroom. ([46:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2797) [47:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2821)) **Q: Does reading books help you live longer?** A: The host cites Yale research on 3,635 people over 50. It found that those who read books for 30 minutes daily lived an average of 23 months longer. ([48:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2896)) **Q: How can I keep track of the books I own and have read?** A: Riaan catalogues his more than two thousand books on librarything.com. The host logs his reading and a to-read list of about 130 books on Goodreads. ([43:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2613) [44:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2676) [45:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2746)) **Q: What book would you recommend to someone struggling in life?** A: The host says The Four Agreements by Miguel Ruiz is the book he recommends most to people who are struggling. He also credits The Art of Happiness with teaching him that happiness is a choice. ([24:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=1468) [27:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=1677)) **Q: How can I stop scrolling my phone instead of reading at night?** A: Riaan charges his phone in the kitchen overnight, so in bed he only has his book to read. ([49:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2994)) ### Passage: How Riaan became a reader and librarian [01:17–02:17, 223 words] Note (AI): The guest's own account of his reading origins, his library job and how journalism took over, which establishes who he is. Riaan Wolmarans, guest [01:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=77): > Well, it's a great way to get knowledge into your head, first of all. But, you know, it's come a long way. I mean, my mother was a primary school teacher, so she ensured that by the time I went to grade one, I was already able to read, and it meant that, you know, when the grade one teacher wanted some time to herself, she would tell little Riaan to read to the class because the rest of them were too stupid to read. So that's where it started, and then I became that little kid who went to the library five times a week and finished all his books by the very next day. And then, of course, that got to the point where the library said, well, why don't you just come and work here, since you're here all the time anyway. And that happened, and then I did work part-time at the library in between studying and doing other jobs. And throughout all that time, I've kept reading. I mean, the library job I had to go after a while because my journalism career took over all that time. I still refer to our house as the Mill Hill Branch Library. It's huge, the collection, and we certainly don't really buy any Kindle books. It's all made of paper. ### Passage: Giving yourself permission to abandon books [08:34–10:53, 502 words] Note (AI): Both speakers work through why acclaimed books can fail to grip and argue that quitting a book is acceptable. Riaan Wolmarans, guest [08:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=514): > Well, my example I brought today is a book called Wolf Hall by Hilary Mantel. She is obviously a very acclaimed author. The book is highly acclaimed, and I tried, and you can see my bookmark there. It's about a third of the way through, and sometimes you read a book and you realize it's really good, it's well written, and clearly the author has skill in putting those words together on a page, but it just doesn't grip you. Clearly, it's won prizes, so there must be something in there, but you might feel like a bit of a failure, but you're just not going to finish this book, and life's too short. The same thing has happened to me with authors like Irvin Welsh, who tends to write in dialect. That can be very annoying. Especially when the dialogue becomes so almost illegible because you have to translate the dialect as it's written into something that sounds like you can, something you can understand. Petro du Pisani, host [09:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=561): > Completely agree. Another book in this category is, I read the first book of Ken Follett's Century Trilogy, which is called Fall of Giants. And while I learned a lot about the First World War and what it was like to live in those times and all of that, after finishing that book, and it took me a long time to read it because it's also one of those tomes, and it was recommended to me by a very special friend who insisted that he loves Ken Follett's books, all of them. So I thought, let me try this book. So I read the first one. And then after I struggle through it, I've decided I'll give myself some time before I do the second book in the trilogy, and I, I think it was about four years ago, and I still haven't read the second book because I just can't bring myself to read more about the war and what Ken Follett does to his characters and makes them suffer. And it's really difficult to, to go through all of the suffering with them, so I'd rather read something a little bit more lighthearted. Riaan Wolmarans, guest [10:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=616): > True, but also the main thing I think that we should agree on today is that it doesn't matter what you read. As long as you read and you enjoy it, it doesn't matter if it's Terry Pratchett book or a Booker Prize winning novel. Or the Bible or a nonfiction book, as long as you're reading and you're enjoying it. So you should never feel guilty about abandoning a certain book for whatever reason it is. Petro du Pisani, host [10:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=635): > Yeah, I completely agree. I mean, I've given myself permission to put a book down. If I've read about five to ten percent of it and I'm just not getting into it, it's okay. I can put it onto my abandoned shelf on Goodreads. It's fine. I just put it there and I never go back to it again, and I can forgive myself. ### Passage: Speculative fiction as escape for a journalist [24:54–27:24, 494 words] Note (AI): The guest explains why inventive fantasy worlds matter to him and ties it to the grind of daily news work. Riaan Wolmarans, guest [24:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=1494): > Just building on what I said about Neil Gaiman, I also brought a book called Abharat by Clive Barker. I mean, he's quite a prolific fantasy author also. He's also very skilled at creating these amazing worlds that you, you can get, just get lost in, and, and the ideas and the creatures and people. In these worlds, it's something quite amazing. And then I brought a book by Chana Miavle that the British author called Unlondon. This specific book is called Unlondon, spelled U N L U N D U N. Now, Chana Miavle I discovered while living in the UK for a few years, and he is basically these other authors like Neil Gaiman, Clive Barker, to the extreme. He takes what they do and makes it into a craft. Not that they're bad authors by any means, but he brings together your kind of fantasy elements with the most amazing ideas that I don't know where on earth he gets them from, and then writes them and brings into that history and philosophy. And all kinds of other interesting sciences and social sciences. And it's written in the most engaging way. You feel like you're learning as you go along about not only about things in your world, but also about just how amazing language can be. I went to a talk by him in London, which was fantastic. And London, for example, is... Imagine, if you will, there's an alternative London in reality, sort of side by side with a normal London, where broken things go. Broken things and broken people, and they end up in this slightly alternate reality that is un-London. he also wrote an amazing book called The City and the City, just to illustrate the way he thinks, and it's being made into a miniseries by the BBC, actually. I don't know how they're going to do it, because it's about two cities, two city-states like Singapore or Monaco, perhaps, that exist in exactly the same location. So you have one city and the buildings, but some buildings are in one city, which is a completely different nation from the other city, and people walk past each other in the street, but they're not allowed to look at some people because those are people from the other city, et cetera, et cetera. So it's those kind of ideas that really keep me engaged. And I think maybe it's, again, my job in a very fact-based environment, and why I say these books change my life is because they give me reason to escape from the world. And you need that as a journalist, because we get so sucked into the terrible news of the day. Everything is death, blood, corruption. I mean, those are the stories that make the news, that sell newspapers. So these books allow me to look at different realities and sort of, you know, get a bit of hope back for humankind. ### Passage: The craft of the short story [35:48–38:03, 431 words] Note (AI): A worked argument about why short stories demand particular craft, illustrated with Joe Hill's story Pop Art. Riaan Wolmarans, guest [35:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2148): > Oh, if you read a lot, you always fantasize about would you be able to write the next great American novel, next great horror novel, next great South African novel. But I think an art form that I've always admired in literature is the art of the short story. Obviously, there's great skill involved in writing a five hundred page tome about, you know, whichever topic. But once you start looking into short stories, whether they are genre short stories, horror, fantasy, sci-fi, or about any other topic in the world, the amount of craft, the level of craft that you need to write a story in a thousand words or in four pages and introduce characters and ideas, make the reader love those characters or hate them. And explore that idea in a most delightful fashion before the story comes to an end is a fantastic skill to have. As an example today, I brought along a book by Joe Hill, who happens to be the son of Stephen King, but he's becoming quite a good writer in his own way, also writing speculative fiction, I guess, not horror as much as his dad does, but this book is called Twentieth Century Ghosts, and it's a book of short stories. And some of them are a little bit of fantasy element in there, a bit of a horror element, but some of them are quite straightforward also, but they are marvelously written. And there's one in particular called Pop Art, which starts with the words, My best friend when I was twelve was inflatable. And it's the most wondrous story about this young boy who befriends a new kid at school who is literally inflatable, basically a balloon that can talk and He keeps on floating off by accident and keeps on being bullied by other boys, and this boy befriends the inflatable boy, and they have some adventures together, and then a few interesting things happen to them down the line. And it's only a few pages long, but it is a masterful way of creating this, this little world with these two boys in one of whom is inflatable, and with this element of unexpected magic, I mean, you know, how can they be an inflatable boy? But you make such a silly concept into something really quite serious, and in the end, the story is actually really sad. So it's that kind of craft that I admire. So I think if I had to write a book, I would love to be able to write short stories. ### Passage: Why people should read, from the newsroom [46:12–48:39, 470 words] Note (AI): Combines the guest's newsroom concern about young non-readers with the host's cited study linking book reading to longevity. Riaan Wolmarans, guest [46:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2772): > I'm going to answer that in two ways. First of all, as someone working in the media industry, in a newsroom, in a journalism environment, it's a real problem for us that there are young people coming into our newsrooms who don't read books unless they're really forced to at varsity or at school, perhaps. But in beyond that, they just don't read. And when you ask them, do you read anything? They say, yes, I read websites. And reading websites doesn't teach you anything about language or writing or taking in information. Your attention span Get shorter by the day. You skip when you read online. You don't actually take in as much information. That's been scientifically proven. That's why, you know, there's a case of a US college professor who, teaching something to do with technology, IT, I can't exactly remember, but he encouraged his students to use their laptops and iPads to take notes. And then quite recently, he reversed that decision and said he banned all technology from his classroom because he realized by not writing and reading in paper, people were taking in much less information. So certainly professionally, I would encourage people to keep on reading as much as they can. If you want to be a writer of any kind, or just if you want to have a good command of the language and spelling and the way that language flows, reading is the best way to learn that. And then personally, you should always read because it's amazing. I mean, it's the best way to create, to visit the most amazing worlds in your head and to read amazing thoughts by other people. It's a wonderful thing to be able to do. Petro du Pisani, host [47:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2865): > It is. I mean, I asked the Google earlier today why people should read books, and I got four sort of answers which I think I can identify with as well. So firstly, reading fiction can help you to be more open-minded and creative. And it's exactly like you're saying, you can visit different worlds, different planets, and you can understand different viewpoints and perspectives, and you won't get that unless you read. And I think you should be reading books in particular. one of the studies by Yale researchers said that people who read live longer. They studied 3,635 people, older than 50, and found that those who read books for 30 minutes daily lived an average of 23 months longer than people who don't read at all or who read magazines. So I don't know what the statistic would be for people who read websites or online or that sort of thing, but you live longer. Maybe it's just because you want to see what's going to happen next. I don't know why that would be, but yes. ### Passage: Reading targets and banning the phone [49:05–50:33, 326 words] Note (AI): Practical habits: a yearly reading target and keeping the phone out of the bedroom so reading replaces scrolling. Petro du Pisani, host [49:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2945): > Another reason why it's good to read books is because if you set yourself a target of reading, say, fifty books in a year, it's something you can actually achieve. It's something that's achievable, and also it's time that's well spent. It's not a time looking at your cell phone or catching up on social media. It's actually a good way to spend your time recreationally is to read books. Riaan Wolmarans, guest [49:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2967): > I have recently banned my cell phone from the bedroom precisely for that reason, because It's quite easy to, especially in the media industry, but I say it's true for everyone else also. You go to bed, your phone is next to you, you do one final check of your Facebook or your Instagram, and you get sucked into something, and next thing you know, you've been reading for half an hour trivialities on your phone instead of an actual good book. Same thing when you wake up. You wake up with your phone next to you, you get distracted by the overnight notifications that came in. Now I plug my phone into the, in the kitchen, it charges there overnight, and I go to bed, and I only have my book to read. Petro du Pisani, host [50:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=3000): > And I think that's a great way to spend your time. I mean, of all the stuff that you can learn in books, the best time to start anything new is right now. So imagine all of the stuff that you could learn and know one year from now if you read fifty books. Oh, it's amazing. All the new stuff that could be in your head, all constructive positive stuff. And then the last reason why I think people should read is that successful people are readers. So, because high achievers are keen on self-improvement. If you're not, don't want to learn new things and, and change yourself, then the best way to do that is to read and read books. ### Quotes > "There's this quote by Harry Truman that not all readers are leaders, but all leaders are readers." > — Petro du Pisani, host · [00:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=31) > "I still refer to our house as the Mill Hill Branch Library. It's huge, the collection, and we certainly don't really buy any Kindle books. It's all made of paper." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · [02:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=126) > "If it's a good story, it's going to keep you And you won't be able to stop reading it." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · [06:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=391) > "you might feel like a bit of a failure, but you're just not going to finish this book, and life's too short." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · [09:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=541) > "Except my squirrel would, would gather books, not nuts." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · [19:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=1149) > "The Art of Happiness by the Dalai Lama, because it taught me that being happy is a choice." > — Petro du Pisani, host · [24:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=1468) > "So these books allow me to look at different realities and sort of, you know, get a bit of hope back for humankind." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · [27:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=1638) > "It's what poetry would look like in a novel form, so I really wanted you to have it." > — Petro du Pisani, host · [30:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=1845) > "I hate it when people say, what's your favorite book? Because that changes every month." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · [41:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2470) > "because I think if a book brought me joy, there's something in there that'll make someone else happy," > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · [41:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2517) > "you can't really put down the book until You know what happens in the final chapter, so you've just got to keep on living until then." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · [48:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2921) > "the best time to start anything new is right now. So imagine all of the stuff that you could learn and know one year from now if you read fifty books." > — Petro du Pisani, host · [50:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=3004) ### Claims > "I find it easier to connect with people who are curious about stuff. And I think the best way to find out about stuff and to be flexible in the way you think about things is to read widely." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Why people should read · [00:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=38) > "my mother was a primary school teacher, so she ensured that by the time I went to grade one, I was already able to read," > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Books that changed lives · [01:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=84) > "And that happened, and then I did work part-time at the library in between studying and doing other jobs. And throughout all that time, I've kept reading. I mean, the library job I had to go after a while because my journalism career took over all that time." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Journalism and reading · [01:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=113) > "in my late twenties and early thirties, I grew an appendage to my arm, which was always the latest Harry Potter book. I think I even took a day off work to finish the last one in the series." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Books that changed lives · [02:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=174) > "Because she found out soon after that I had now read the book and loved it, and I think then she realized I wasn't getting any nightmares or having any nightmares, and I was fine to read these books. And so she unleashed me on the adult library," > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Books that changed lives · [04:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=243) > "I think there's certain books in your life that are very relevant in a certain time period of your life. So I read most of the Terry Pratchett books when I was in university." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Books that changed lives · [05:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=335) > "I hate making the distinction between genre literature, your sci-fi, speculative fiction, fantasy, horror, and so-called serious literature. I don't think there should be much of a distinction, even though there are different genres, obviously." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Genre and speculative fiction · [06:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=366) > "I think the thing I loved about that book was that it was written from eight different perspectives. So you had the story being told from eight different viewpoints, which meant that you could get a different perspective on how each person might perceive a specific event," > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Books that changed lives · [06:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=406) > "he has a very good way of bringing gay characters into his books in a very natural, integrated way. So without making an issue about a character's sexuality, it is woven into his novels in a fantastic way." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Books that changed lives · [07:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=447) > "I started reading Walter Isaacson's biography of Benjamin Franklin, and after reading for a month, just to complete about ten percent of the book, I gave up because it's just so rich in detail. I felt like I was missing out on ten other books by reading this book." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Abandoning books guilt-free · [08:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=483) > "sometimes you read a book and you realize it's really good, it's well written, and clearly the author has skill in putting those words together on a page, but it just doesn't grip you." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Abandoning books guilt-free · [08:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=528) > "As long as you read and you enjoy it, it doesn't matter if it's Terry Pratchett book or a Booker Prize winning novel. Or the Bible or a nonfiction book, as long as you're reading and you're enjoying it. So you should never feel guilty about abandoning a certain book for whatever reason it is." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Abandoning books guilt-free · [10:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=621) > "I've given myself permission to put a book down. If I've read about five to ten percent of it and I'm just not getting into it, it's okay. I can put it onto my abandoned shelf on Goodreads." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Abandoning books guilt-free · [10:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=637) > "just because I work in a newsroom all day in the middle of streams of facts and factual information or non-factual information, as our critics would say. So by the time I get home, when I do read nonfiction, it tends to be a chapter here, a chapter there." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Journalism and reading · [10:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=656) > "since we lived together for quite some time, probably about three years in Melville, I think we gave each other lots of books and we lent books to and from each other and that sort of thing." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Books as gifts · [11:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=690) > "Now, I know that No rugby-loving Afrikaans male would be seen with a Marian Keys novel in his hands, but actually they all could do with reading it." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Genre and speculative fiction · [12:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=774) > "But even though Marion Keys is chick lit, she also deals with some serious topics as well. I mean, some of the books are about alcoholism or losing somebody and, and being grieving over somebody." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Genre and speculative fiction · [13:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=826) > "So when I go on holiday, I always lug around a giant bag of books because I don't believe in a Kindle, doesn't exist." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Reading habits and tracking · [14:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=872) > "so when I go on a holiday, I take my Kindle with me, and I normally have preloaded it with lots and lots and lots of books. And I also do a lot of travel for work, so if I'm flying overseas on aeroplanes, I don't watch any of the movies, I actually read a lot of books." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Reading habits and tracking · [15:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=902) > "I'm also a collector of classic comic books, among my many other little oddities. So it was quite a good book for me to read just because it very much gave me a bit of a window into the 1930s, 1940s, and 50s in the comic book industry in New York City," > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Books that changed lives · [16:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=996) > "the way that Louise Penny describes how people are eating food just makes you want to eat that food the whole time as well. And I find her books, for me, are like comfort food for the soul." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Books that changed lives · [17:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=1026) > "Dion loves giving this book to people to read, to the point where I think we've probably lost more copies or just given them away permanently than any other book in our house." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Books as gifts · [20:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=1204) > "In South Africa about two or three years later, and they brought that same book with them as a present for me. So I had to hide my copy of that book so they didn't see it." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Books as gifts · [20:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=1254) > "I like the name speculative fiction, because quite often I think science fiction and fantasy got a bad rap because of people think, oh, it's genre literature, and it's cheap and trashy, and it shouldn't be read by serious people. That's in fact not true." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Genre and speculative fiction · [22:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=1355) > "Neil Gaiman is one of the authors that I appreciate because of the way he thinks about things, the way he takes something, an ordinary city, an ordinary idea, and puts something magical into it in a way that you wouldn't expect." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Genre and speculative fiction · [24:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=1449) > "The Art of Happiness by the Dalai Lama, because it taught me that being happy is a choice. You don't have to be negative and drown in negativity, you can actually choose to be happy." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Books that changed lives · [24:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=1468) > "Now, Chana Miavle I discovered while living in the UK for a few years, and he is basically these other authors like Neil Gaiman, Clive Barker, to the extreme." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Genre and speculative fiction · [25:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=1523) > "why I say these books change my life is because they give me reason to escape from the world. And you need that as a journalist, because we get so sucked into the terrible news of the day. Everything is death, blood, corruption." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Journalism and reading · [27:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=1622) > "It's a practical guide to personal freedom. So this may also be the book that I recommend to most people to read. If somebody is struggling with something in life, then it's one of the books that I recommend for most people to pick it up and read it." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Books that changed lives · [27:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=1677) > "Which taught me that even though it's difficult to be individualistic and to stand up for what you think is right, it's the right thing to do." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Books that changed lives · [28:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=1695) > "the book is set in Barcelona, which is my favorite city in the world. I visited several times, and I always love it there." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Books that changed lives · [29:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=1742) > "I thought it would be about anthropology and that sort of stuff, but then it turned out to be about psychology and atheism, and it was absolutely fascinating to read," > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Books that changed lives · [33:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2008) > "And then you start reading it, and it is the bleakest book, I think, in existence. The depths of despair this book puts you through, it certainly made for an interesting, unexpected change from the usual kind of adventurous type writing you find in novels like these." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Genre and speculative fiction · [35:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2108) > "the amount of craft, the level of craft that you need to write a story in a thousand words or in four pages and introduce characters and ideas, make the reader love those characters or hate them." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Genre and speculative fiction · [36:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2178) > "I would just love to take some time off to do a PhD on change integrity. Let's say it would be a business book, but it would be all around teaching corporations how to implement change and doing it in a way that is humane and with integrity" > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Change with integrity · [38:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2298) > "you proofread my master's thesis was on the financial benefit of doing borehole radar, which you then said Boreoli radar." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Change with integrity · [38:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2328) > "I think it's modeled on Google probably, where Google is starting to take over your life, where eventually we'll be voting via Google, banking via Google, everything will be online," > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Books as gifts · [40:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2410) > "Something practical in the sense that if you know someone's embarking on a new hobby or something, to give them a book that supports that new interest is always a nice thing to be able to do." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Books as gifts · [41:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2502) > "all my books are catalogued on a website called librarything.com, which is a great way for anyone to just kind of catalogue the books they have at home" > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Reading habits and tracking · [43:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2613) > "we own more than two thousand books in our home, so we run out of space every now and then, and that's when you take a critical look at your bookshelves" > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Reading habits and tracking · [44:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2676) > "So I've got a, a to-read list of probably about 130 books on there at the moment, and it's nice to, when I get stuck," > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Reading habits and tracking · [45:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2746) > "it's a real problem for us that there are young people coming into our newsrooms who don't read books unless they're really forced to at varsity or at school, perhaps. But in beyond that, they just don't read." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Journalism and reading · [46:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2780) > "And reading websites doesn't teach you anything about language or writing or taking in information. Your attention span Get shorter by the day. You skip when you read online." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Why people should read · [46:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2797) > "he encouraged his students to use their laptops and iPads to take notes. And then quite recently, he reversed that decision and said he banned all technology from his classroom because he realized by not writing and reading in paper, people were taking in much less information." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Why people should read · [47:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2821) > "They studied 3,635 people, older than 50, and found that those who read books for 30 minutes daily lived an average of 23 months longer than people who don't read at all or who read magazines." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Why people should read · [48:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2896) > "if you set yourself a target of reading, say, fifty books in a year, it's something you can actually achieve. It's something that's achievable, and also it's time that's well spent." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Why people should read · [49:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2949) > "Now I plug my phone into the, in the kitchen, it charges there overnight, and I go to bed, and I only have my book to read." > — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Reading habits and tracking · [49:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2994) > "the last reason why I think people should read is that successful people are readers. So, because high achievers are keen on self-improvement." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Why people should read · [50:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=3019) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) In this episode we take inspiration from a cartoon by Grant Snider and discuss books in twelve categories; those we couldn't pick up or put down. Books we lent each other. Books we thought were about one thing, then turned out to be about something different. Books that changed us and shaped us through the years. Connect with Petro · Solid Gold Podcasts ## #009 Gail Cameron | Coaching and African Leadership - Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/009-coaching-and-african-leadership/ - Date: 2018-10-25 (as at 2018-10-25) - Guest: Gail Cameron - Host: Petro du Pisani - Themes: Coaching career evolution, Emotional intelligence, Social intelligence, Mindfulness and balance, Quantum physics of leadership, Resonant leadership, African leadership qualities, Intentional change process - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/991988 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Gail Cameron - founder and managing director · Image Excellence Group - Founder and managing director of the Image Excellence Group with more than 25 years experience as a leadership coach; fellow of Trinity College London; author of Voice Excellence (1994) and Authentic African Leadership (2013). - Links: iegroup.co.za In their own words: > "So I studied speech and drama through Trinity College, London, and when I started off, I was quite hard-headed, and I just wanted to get a job and get away from home." [04:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=263) > "And then, you know, I'd started off lecturing at FUBA, the Federated Union of Black Artists, and so I'd had a lot of experience in being a voice and speech coach. And I'd written a book called How to Improve Your Accent." [05:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=313) > "I think I started lecturing at Fubo in 1985, so, and we started the iGroup so long before coaching was popular, long before anybody knew what a coach Was." [07:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=437) > "You know, I've coached some of the greatest leaders in this country, and I've absolutely no doubt in my mind that the leaders who made a difference were in power. They were either at courage, neutrality, freedom, love." [21:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1265) > "But, I mean, we've never advertised, so all of our work is word of mouth, and it is incredible. We coach people all over the world." [28:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1735) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Host Petro du Pisani talks with Gail Cameron, founder of the Image Excellence Group, about how her coaching practice grew from voice and speech work into leadership and life coaching. They draw on excerpts from her book Authentic African Leadership. Gail explains emotional and social intelligence, mindfulness as a remedy for burnout, and an energy-based 'quantum physics' view of leadership, including a map of consciousness. She then describes resonant leadership, the qualities she thinks South Africa needs, and the steps of an intentional change journey in coaching. She draws on personal hardship and more than thirty years in the field. **Key ideas** - Gail argues that hardship is the main source of growth and that the best coaches have the deepest scars. ([03:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=196) [03:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=207) [04:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=242)) - Gail says emotional intelligence accounts for most leadership effectiveness, unlike personality or IQ it can be developed, and it learns through awareness rather than logic. ([10:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=644) [11:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=684) [11:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=705) [12:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=727)) - Gail describes social intelligence as reading others accurately, which needs presence and can be trained through techniques like Paul Ekman's micro-expressions. ([00:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=6) [13:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=789) [14:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=885) [15:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=902)) - Gail frames burnout as a 'sacrifice syndrome' driven by stress hormones, countered by opening pathways to mindfulness, hope and compassion. ([16:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=971) [17:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1025) [17:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1043) [17:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1043) [19:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1141)) - Gail holds that leaders operate at energetic frequencies on a map of consciousness, and effective leaders like Mandela and Gandhi were 'in power'. ([20:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1210) [20:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1216) [21:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1265) [21:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1286)) - Gail contrasts resonant leaders, who catch people doing things right, with dissonant leaders who make teams crash and burn. ([22:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1339) [22:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1372) [23:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1390)) - For South Africa, Gail names vision, ethics, reality and courage as the leadership qualities needed now. ([23:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1402) [24:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1440) [24:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1467) [24:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1489)) **Intentional change journey** ([26:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1561) [26:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1573) [26:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1606)) 1. Become aware of who you are, including your strengths. 2. Understand your growth areas. 3. Develop a learning agenda from that awareness. 4. Work through trusting relationships with your coach and people around you. 5. Practise the new behaviour in safe environments. 6. Try it in higher risk environments, where behavioural change occurs. **Lessons** - Gail advises using video and role-play so clients can see themselves, since awareness precedes behavioural change. ([10:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=644) [12:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=735)) - Gail says knowing your values matters because the greatest conflicts arise when non-negotiable values are compromised. ([18:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1116)) - Gail stresses that self-care comes first: you cannot save anybody until you put your own life jacket on. ([00:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=31) [20:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1216)) - Gail notes coaching works best when clients arrive open-minded and take ownership rather than being sent as 'hostages'. ([26:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1561) [27:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1624) [27:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1664)) - Gail, quoting a mentor, argues that you cannot control the vagaries of each day, only your attitude. ([25:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1525) [25:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1526)) **Who it's for:** Managers, professionals facing burnout, and people considering executive or life coaching who want an experienced South African coach's view on emotional intelligence, mindfulness and leadership, including listeners interested in energy-based ideas about leadership. **Facts stated in the episode** - Gail says she started lecturing at FUBA, the Federated Union of Black Artists, in 1985. ([05:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=313) [07:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=437)) - In 2000 Gail's youngest son had a brain tumour and nearly died. ([06:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=380)) - Gail says a South African professor took seventeen years to develop the Bar-On EQ-i instrument, called 'Baran EQI' in the transcript. ([10:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=644)) - Gail states ninety-three percent of leadership effectiveness is entrenched in emotional intelligence. ([11:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=684)) - Gail says social intelligence evolved from about 2003, first observed at a Swedish conference. ([08:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=537)) - On Gail's map of consciousness, shame sits at the bottom at twenty microwatts. ([20:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1216)) - Gail says everybody at the FBI has to learn Paul Ekman's micro-expression technique. ([14:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=885)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: How did Gail Cameron get into coaching?** A: After her divorce she needed to support two small boys. She published a book on improving your accent with a bank loan. When readers called asking for help with discrimination, she realised she had a business case. ([04:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=297) [04:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=299) [05:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=313) [05:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=344)) **Q: Can emotional intelligence be learned?** A: Gail says yes: unlike personality or IQ, every aspect of EQ can be developed. It learns through awareness, dedication and commitment rather than a logical linear process. ([11:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=705) [12:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=727)) **Q: How important is emotional intelligence for leaders?** A: Gail states that ninety-three percent of leadership effectiveness is entrenched in emotional intelligence. In her view technical competency is only a baseline competence. ([11:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=684)) **Q: What is the difference between emotional and social intelligence?** A: Gail describes social intelligence as the communicative arm of EQ: reading accurately what is in front of you and responding appropriately. She says this requires being present and mindful. ([08:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=537) [13:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=789)) **Q: How can I avoid burnout and find balance?** A: Gail says success is an inside job. She suggests opening pathways to mindfulness, starting with conscious awareness of self and understanding your values. This leads to hope and compassion. ([16:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=971) [17:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1043) [17:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1043) [18:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1116) [19:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1141)) **Q: What is a resonant leader?** A: According to Gail, resonant leaders are positive, optimistic, have a sense of humour, like people and catch people doing things right. They create environments where teams catch fire. ([22:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1372) [23:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1390)) **Q: What leadership qualities does South Africa need now?** A: Gail names vision communicated so followers take ownership, ethics, being steeped in reality, and courage to go where the pain is. ([24:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1440) [24:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1467) [24:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1489)) **Q: How do I know if I'm ready for coaching?** A: Gail says self-awareness is key. People sent by their companies struggle until they see coaching as contributing to their own development and take ownership. ([26:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1561) [26:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1573) [27:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1624)) **Q: How does Gail's business find clients?** A: Gail says they have never advertised. All their work is word of mouth, and they coach people all over the world. ([28:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1735) [28:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1735)) ### Passage: From divorce and a son's illness to coaching [04:57–07:05, 426 words] Note (AI): Gail's own account of how financial necessity and her son's near death shaped her move from voice coaching into leadership and life coaching. Gail Cameron, guest [04:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=297): > So it's, again, life experiences. So having just got divorced, I had two small boys, and the youngest was not even a year old, and I had to support them. I had no other means of supporting them. And so I, I realized I'd have to get a job, a real job. And then, you know, I'd started off lecturing at FUBA, the Federated Union of Black Artists, and so I'd had a lot of experience in being a voice and speech coach. And I'd written a book called How to Improve Your Accent. And so I went to the bank and I said, I need a bank loan. I want to get this book published. And the bank manager said, come back with some cash flow projections and budget. And I can remember phoning a friend of mine and saying, how do I do this? I've no idea. And he helped me put it together. They lent me the money. I published the book. And what was overwhelming was, was when the book was published. Then People would start calling and saying, I've suffered the same social and professional discrimination. Can you help me? And that's when I realized I, you know, I had a business case. Petro du Pisani, host [05:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=358): > So it started off very much with voice and communication type coaching, but then you evolved from there. So how did that evolution happen? Gail Cameron, guest [06:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=367): > Yes, it was more communication, and then I sort of got into leadership, but I was a very kind of hard-nosed, you know, leadership coach, and you were either right or you were wrong, and if you didn't want to sort of get the stuff, you had to get off the bus. And then in 2000, I almost lost my youngest son. He had a brain tumor, and basically he was, he was going to die. And a miracle happened, and basically his life was saved. And I can remember that night as he was dying, I basically, in the ICU, I sort of went on my knees and I started praying, and I just said, if you let him live, I'll do your work. And then it was the strangest thing, because it was very imperceptible how my work changed, but I was not even conscious of how it had shifted. A lot of clients started coming to me then who had serious obstacles in their lives, and how could I help them? And then my work moved more into life coaching. I guess that's what it's been over the last 18 years. ### Passage: How her coaching offer evolved over decades [08:19–10:09, 317 words] Note (AI): Traces the sequence from image and voice work through business English and EQ to life coaching, and names lack of self-regard as the core problem. Gail Cameron, guest [08:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=499): > So it's interesting how the whole business coaching and the coaching concept has evolved. So we started off with voice and speech communication. We did a lot of image consulting in those days. And then the leadership evolved, and then I thought, well, you can look good, sound good, but if you don't command the language, you're not going anywhere either. And I'd come from a second language speaking environment. So then we started doing business English. That became quite a big focus. And then I realized, no, Is, is definitely another piece missing here because, you know, especially when a client had an obstacle, it was impeding them from performing at the optimum. And that's really how emotional intelligence came into it. From emotional intelligence, the communicative arm of that, which is social intelligence, evolved from about 2003. I think that's where it was first observed at a Swedish conference. And then, of course, I realized, well, it's an inside job. It's really about how people are coping with what's going on in their lives, not necessarily their professional skills, and that's really how the life coaching evolved. So it really has, you know, come full circle, I think. Petro du Pisani, host [09:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=569): > That's so interesting. What are some of the biggest transformations you've seen, and how has that made you feel? Gail Cameron, guest [09:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=575): > I think some of the biggest transformations have really been about People suddenly waking up to their own potential. I think that's the most rewarding one. The greatest dysfunctionality I've seen in thirty years of being in this business is the lack of self-regard. And I think all of us, to a greater or less extent, suffer from a lack of self-regard. So the greatest transformation will come from when suddenly that person realizes that they actually had it all the time and that the power has been restored into their own hands where it was all along. ### Passage: Emotional intelligence: the Bar-On instrument and how EQ learns [10:44–12:46, 310 words] Note (AI): Explains what EQ measures, why it can be developed unlike personality or IQ, and her video role-play technique for building awareness. Gail Cameron, guest [10:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=644): > So the great thing is that very few people know this, but that a South African leads the field globally in emotional intelligence. So Professor Baran did his PhD at Rhodes, and it took him seventeen years to develop this instrument, and it's called the Baran EQI. And what emotional intelligence does, it looks at intrapersonal competencies, which is kind of how you know yourself, how you can regulate those emotions, but it also looks at the way in which you can read other people and how you would respond to that. So it's a beautiful instrument. It gives a scientific detail. But the interesting thing about EQ is that ninety-three percent of leadership effectiveness is entrenched in emotional intelligence. In fact, technical competency today is regarded as a baseline competence. It will get you the job, it will get the job done, but the biggest difference lies in the way in which you do that job. So therefore, it's different to personality assessments, because you can't really shift the personality. It's completely different to IQ, because that deals with cognitive elements, but you can develop every aspect of emotional intelligence, and I think that's the great thing. But the important thing with developing emotional intelligence is how the emotional intelligent brain learns. So it learns through awareness, dedication, and commitment. So it doesn't learn through a logical linear process. So the best way to do this with clients, although they really kick against it at times, is to video them, put them into role-play simulations so that they can see themselves. And especially people who've got these very high processing left brains, you know, like accountants and like engineers, especially, when they see themselves is when they realize, okay, so perhaps I can tweak this or that. And that's the awareness that precedes change that creates the behavioral change. ### Passage: Three pathways to mindfulness, hope and compassion [17:23–19:40, 373 words] Note (AI): Gail's practical answer to burnout: self-knowledge, values work, hope and compassion, framed as a counter to the sacrifice syndrome. Gail Cameron, guest [17:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1043): > The only way to avert this is to open the pathways to mindfulness. So there's actually three pathways we open. So the first is conscious awareness of self. Heart, mind, body, spirit. And it's answering those big questions like, who am I? So there's a lot of people I coach who have no idea who they are. They have no idea that your thoughts create your life. A gift we've been given is that we can create with our thoughts. Equally, we can dig a big hole and bury ourselves, and that's where the sacrifice syndrome comes in. But you can also use those thoughts, you can change them to a positive frequency. You can change your thoughts, feelings, and intentions, and when you do that, it changes your life. So first of all, go in and find out who you are. And you can do this by looking at exercises about your personal vision. You can look at your future vision. So what is your philosophical orientation? There's nothing new about this stuff. Sophocles said, know thyself. So this is a way of excavating and, and really getting in touch with who you are in a very deep way. Understanding your values is critical. Our greatest conflicts occur when those values are compromised. Why? Because they're not negotiable. Most people don't even know what they are, and they evolve over time. So it's actually quite an easy exercise. And what we'll do is I'll send you some exercises that people can do to excavate and know themselves if they want to explore this further. It's really not complicated. When you've opened mindfulness, it leads to hope. And it is when hope is aroused, it leads to compassion. And compassion is empathy and caring in action, and it starts with the individual. You cannot save anybody until you put your own life jacket on first. So basically, when you work on those three elements, it opens up neurons begin to fire on the left-hand side of the prefrontal cortex. The good hormones flood the body. You do that over a long period, it leads to feeling excited, optimistic, hopeful, looking forward to the future. So it's really not a complicated process at all. ### Passage: The map of consciousness and leaders in power [20:10–22:45, 440 words] Note (AI): Sets out her energy-frequency view of leadership, using Gandhi and Mandela as examples and linking it to resonant versus dissonant leaders. Gail Cameron, guest [20:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1210): > We are powerful energetic beings, and the interesting thing is that You can increase your frequency. So the whole map of consciousness has happened. We measure it in microwatts of energy, and they are very low frequency vibrations, so at the very bottom sits shame, which is twenty microwatts, and we can see it in shame cultures, where women are banished, stoned to death. Then as you go up the ladder, it's kind of guilt, and then grief. We are all plunged to levels of grief at moments of our life, but it's to stay down there is destructive. And then it goes up through fear, anger, and even pride. Pride is a negative. So one of our big banks had it in its strapline a few years ago. They've removed it because they've been exposed to the map of consciousness. And then we get up to courage, and courage is actually the point at which everything moves into power. You know, I've coached some of the greatest leaders in this country, and I've absolutely no doubt in my mind that the leaders who made a difference were in power. They were either at courage, neutrality, freedom, love. So it explains why a small, feeble man with the construct of Satyagraha could overturn the British Empire. So Gandhi was completely in power. It explains why a man with love and forgiveness in his heart, despite being in jail for 27 years, could come out of jail and negotiate his country out of a revolution. Mandela was completely in power. These different energetic frequencies have been measured. When you're in the lower frequencies, that's where all the crocodiles are swimming, and that's when life is difficult. People are taking chunks out of you. So the responsibility of life is to increase your consciousness. When you do that, you, to a certain extent, raise the consciousness of everybody around you. So we measure it in laboratories. So just as an example, I bring two people into a laboratory, measure their heart rate, temperature, and they're completely different. We put them together for a fifteen-minute conversation, measure them again. They were incomplete, some part ago with one another, beginning to reflect one another's body rhythms. So people catch feelings. The person who adds a stronger seasoning into that is the leader. So therefore, being a resonant leader, being positive, catching people doing things right, and believing in people, you create a whole virtuous cycle where reflective parts of the brain open, and you will be able to stretch and reach. But your dissonant leaders will obviously have the opposite effect. It's all physics. ### Passage: The intentional change journey in coaching [26:01–27:29, 245 words] Note (AI): Step-by-step description of how coaching produces behavioural change, and why clients who are sent against their will struggle until they take ownership. Gail Cameron, guest [26:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1561): > So the key is self-awareness. We also measure it in terms of emotional intelligence, but without self-awareness, it's very, very difficult to create the change. So if we look at an intentional change journey, and this is a scientific process, you first need to be aware of who you are, and that is knowing where your strengths are. That's equally important because those strengths need to be bolstered, but then also understanding, so where are my growth areas? And then developing a learning agenda from that, but it's got to be done through trusting relationships with your coach and other people who are around you. So that may be a line manager or it may be your partner in your life, but trusting relationships. And then you should get an opportunity to practice it. So in safe environments. And then you get to try it in higher risk environments, and that's where the new neurons develop, and that's how behavioral change occurs. So it's actually quite a simple process, but the self-awareness is key. So we've sometimes had hostages, people who've been sent there because they're not achieving, for whatever reason, the objectives that company wants. And it's very, very difficult to kind of turn that person around until they begin to realize, well, actually, this is going to contribute to my personal development. It doesn't matter where I go, what I do, but this can improve my life, and that's when they take ownership. ### Quotes > "If you're in business and you can really read what people are thinking, feeling, intending, it gives you the upper hand in any communication." > — Gail Cameron, guest · [00:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=6) > "You cannot save anybody until you put your own life jacket on first." > — Gail Cameron, guest · [00:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=31) > "You are your greatest desires, because within you, you have the capability to create with your thoughts. Choose the positive route. It's in your hands." > — Gail Cameron, guest · [00:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=40) > "And I said, the best coaches have the deepest scars." > — Gail Cameron, guest · [03:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=207) > "The greatest dysfunctionality I've seen in thirty years of being in this business is the lack of self-regard." > — Gail Cameron, guest · [09:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=585) > "It explains why a man with love and forgiveness in his heart, despite being in jail for 27 years, could come out of jail and negotiate his country out of a revolution. Mandela was completely in power." > — Gail Cameron, guest · [21:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1286) > "When you're in the lower frequencies, that's where all the crocodiles are swimming, and that's when life is difficult. People are taking chunks out of you." > — Gail Cameron, guest · [21:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1302) > "But the resonant leader creates environments in which teams catch fire, break the records." > — Gail Cameron, guest · [23:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1390) > "you have no control over the vagaries that are going to come across your desk every day, but what you can control is your attitude." > — Gail Cameron, guest · [25:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1526) > "But, I mean, we've never advertised, so all of our work is word of mouth," > — Gail Cameron, guest · [28:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1735) ### Claims > "I think there's always been a caring side to me, but I think it's life circumstances that mould you. So it's like a client said to me one day, so what makes a good coach? And I said, the best coaches have the deepest scars." > — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Coaching career evolution · [03:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=196) > "Yes, I believe the great lessons in life come from hardship, and it's really only hardship that there are gains of self-development, although most of us are trying very hard to escape it, escape the very lessons that we've come here to learn, but it really is the moulding influence." > — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: African leadership qualities · [04:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=242) > "So I studied speech and drama through Trinity College, London, and when I started off, I was quite hard-headed, and I just wanted to get a job and get away from home." > — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Coaching career evolution · [04:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=263) > "So having just got divorced, I had two small boys, and the youngest was not even a year old, and I had to support them. I had no other means of supporting them." > — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Coaching career evolution · [04:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=299) > "And then, you know, I'd started off lecturing at FUBA, the Federated Union of Black Artists, and so I'd had a lot of experience in being a voice and speech coach. And I'd written a book called How to Improve Your Accent." > — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Coaching career evolution · [05:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=313) > "And what was overwhelming was, was when the book was published. Then People would start calling and saying, I've suffered the same social and professional discrimination. Can you help me? And that's when I realized I, you know, I had a business case." > — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Coaching career evolution · [05:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=344) > "And then in 2000, I almost lost my youngest son. He had a brain tumor, and basically he was, he was going to die. And a miracle happened, and basically his life was saved." > — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Coaching career evolution · [06:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=380) > "A lot of clients started coming to me then who had serious obstacles in their lives, and how could I help them? And then my work moved more into life coaching. I guess that's what it's been over the last 18 years." > — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Coaching career evolution · [06:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=413) > "I think I started lecturing at Fubo in 1985, so, and we started the iGroup so long before coaching was popular, long before anybody knew what a coach Was." > — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Coaching career evolution · [07:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=437) > "So we started off with voice and speech communication. We did a lot of image consulting in those days. And then the leadership evolved, and then I thought, well, you can look good, sound good, but if you don't command the language, you're not going anywhere either." > — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Coaching career evolution · [08:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=504) > "And that's really how emotional intelligence came into it. From emotional intelligence, the communicative arm of that, which is social intelligence, evolved from about 2003. I think that's where it was first observed at a Swedish conference." > — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Emotional intelligence · [08:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=537) > "The greatest dysfunctionality I've seen in thirty years of being in this business is the lack of self-regard. And I think all of us, to a greater or less extent, suffer from a lack of self-regard." > — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Coaching career evolution · [09:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=585) > "So the great thing is that very few people know this, but that a South African leads the field globally in emotional intelligence. So Professor Baran did his PhD at Rhodes, and it took him seventeen years to develop this instrument, and it's called the Baran EQI." > — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Emotional intelligence · [10:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=644) > "But the interesting thing about EQ is that ninety-three percent of leadership effectiveness is entrenched in emotional intelligence. In fact, technical competency today is regarded as a baseline competence. It will get you the job, it will get the job done, but the biggest difference lies in the way in which you do that job." > — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Emotional intelligence · [11:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=684) > "So therefore, it's different to personality assessments, because you can't really shift the personality. It's completely different to IQ, because that deals with cognitive elements, but you can develop every aspect of emotional intelligence, and I think that's the great thing." > — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Emotional intelligence · [11:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=705) > "So it learns through awareness, dedication, and commitment. So it doesn't learn through a logical linear process." > — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Emotional intelligence · [12:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=727) > "So the best way to do this with clients, although they really kick against it at times, is to video them, put them into role-play simulations so that they can see themselves." > — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Emotional intelligence · [12:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=735) > "And that's also because most of us are not present. We're not mindful. So we're in a meeting, but we're actually thinking about yesterday and we're planning the future." > — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Social intelligence · [13:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=789) > "people at the very top end of the bell curve, in terms of IQ, it's almost as though that IQ muscle has strengthened at the expense of the EQ muscle." > — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Social intelligence · [14:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=854) > "So the leader in this area in the world is a guy called Professor Paul Ekman. He's developed the micro-expression technique. And you can go online and you can learn, you can sensitize yourself. So everybody at the FBI has to learn micro-expression technique." > — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Social intelligence · [14:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=885) > "if you, a US embassy official working in an embassy is filling in an application for a candidate, and he notices a fleeting expression that he doesn't like, goes next door, he puts this man's name into the Interpol computer, up comes his name on the most wanted list." > — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Social intelligence · [15:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=902) > "So I work in a department at the moment where many of us spend a lot of time away from home, and you have to really make a concerted effort to find balance." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Mindfulness and balance · [15:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=958) > "So the only pathway to success is inside. It is an inside job, and I work with many young professionals who burn out, so it's called a sacrifice syndrome. That's a clinical term." > — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Mindfulness and balance · [16:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=971) > "And it's the stress hormone that makes all the changes. It raises your blood pressure, it increases your heart rate, and if it's left unchecked over long periods, it can trigger anabolic endorphins in the body which cause disease." > — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Mindfulness and balance · [17:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1025) > "The only way to avert this is to open the pathways to mindfulness. So there's actually three pathways we open. So the first is conscious awareness of self. Heart, mind, body, spirit." > — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Mindfulness and balance · [17:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1043) > "Understanding your values is critical. Our greatest conflicts occur when those values are compromised. Why? Because they're not negotiable. Most people don't even know what they are, and they evolve over time." > — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Mindfulness and balance · [18:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1116) > "When you've opened mindfulness, it leads to hope. And it is when hope is aroused, it leads to compassion. And compassion is empathy and caring in action, and it starts with the individual." > — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Mindfulness and balance · [19:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1141) > "So the whole map of consciousness has happened. We measure it in microwatts of energy, and they are very low frequency vibrations, so at the very bottom sits shame, which is twenty microwatts, and we can see it in shame cultures, where women are banished, stoned to death." > — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Quantum physics of leadership · [20:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1216) > "You know, I've coached some of the greatest leaders in this country, and I've absolutely no doubt in my mind that the leaders who made a difference were in power. They were either at courage, neutrality, freedom, love." > — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Quantum physics of leadership · [21:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1265) > "So just as an example, I bring two people into a laboratory, measure their heart rate, temperature, and they're completely different. We put them together for a fifteen-minute conversation, measure them again." > — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Quantum physics of leadership · [22:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1322) > "So people catch feelings. The person who adds a stronger seasoning into that is the leader. So therefore, being a resonant leader, being positive, catching people doing things right, and believing in people, you create a whole virtuous cycle where reflective parts of the brain open, and you will be able to stretch and reach." > — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Resonant leadership · [22:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1339) > "So resonant leaders are positive, they're optimistic, they have a sense of humor, by the way, that's an EQ hallmark. They like people. They catch people doing things right. Dissonant leaders are negative, cynical, abrasive, catch people doing things wrong." > — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Resonant leadership · [22:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1372) > "In South Africa, we've been going through this massive change of leadership over the last couple of years, and I think had a quite an emotional journey from when we became a new democracy in 1994 to now, to going through this last couple of years of state capture and all of that." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: African leadership qualities · [23:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1402) > "It's really about thinking big, new, and ahead, but it's being able to communicate that vision from a mutually beneficial platform to allow the follower to take ownership. Leadership's about followers." > — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: African leadership qualities · [24:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1440) > "Most of the effective leaders will align themselves with a set of values quite early in life, and they will navigate unwaveringly by those values. Then also reality." > — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: African leadership qualities · [24:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1467) > "And lastly, I think one of the most important ones is courage, is having the courage to live your life to its full potential, to go where the pain is." > — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: African leadership qualities · [24:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1489) > "he said, you have no control over the vagaries that are going to come across your desk every day, but what you can control is your attitude." > — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: African leadership qualities · [25:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1525) > "So if we look at an intentional change journey, and this is a scientific process, you first need to be aware of who you are, and that is knowing where your strengths are." > — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Intentional change process · [26:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1573) > "And then you should get an opportunity to practice it. So in safe environments. And then you get to try it in higher risk environments, and that's where the new neurons develop, and that's how behavioral change occurs." > — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Intentional change process · [26:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1606) > "So we've sometimes had hostages, people who've been sent there because they're not achieving, for whatever reason, the objectives that company wants." > — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Intentional change process · [27:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1624) > "So he'd been in the hospitality industry. It's quite a brutal industry because of the hours that they work and so on, and his life experiences. But the wonderful thing was that he was ready." > — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Intentional change process · [27:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1664) > "But, I mean, we've never advertised, so all of our work is word of mouth, and it is incredible. We coach people all over the world." > — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Coaching career evolution · [28:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1735) > "It depends on, you know, what you describe as success, but I really think it's not about having more. It's really about your behavior, and we can all, in terms of that behavior, create a positive life for ourselves," > — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Quantum physics of leadership · [30:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1828) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Petro du Pisani talks to Gail Cameron (MD of the Image Excellence Group) on how executive and life coaching has evolved over the past 30 years. They discuss excerpts from Gail's book "Authentic African Leadership," and touch on topics such as Emotional Intelligence, Social Intelligence, Resonant Leadership and the Quantum Physics of Leadership. iegroup.co.za · Connect with Petro · Solid Gold Podcasts ## #007 Dr. Clifford Saunders | Reprogramming your brain - Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/007-reprogramming-your-brain/ - Date: 2018-09-21 (as at 2018-09-21) - Guest: Clifford Saunders - Host: Petro du Pisani - Themes: Neuroplasticity, Talking to your brain, Sleep and problem solving, Simulations and emulations, Applied neuroscience in business, Artificial intelligence and feelings, Guest career background - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/991990 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Clifford Saunders - managing director · Center for Applied Neuroscience · Australia - Took an undergraduate degree in electrical engineering, a master's in applied psych and a PhD in cybernetics; worked at British Aircraft Corporation and Bell Northern Research, then branched out on his own in 1991, working in cost reduction and steel. In their own words: > "But I found out that I was pretty damn good at engineering. I got a first. And the company that I was working with, British Aircraft Corporation, for those of us that got firsts in, in our year, they offered us a master's in, say, applied psych." [06:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=371) > "So my master's is in applied psych, and the interesting thing here is when I'd finished my undergraduate, I now knew how information flows within healthy and unhealthy circuits." [06:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=399) > "So part of my education was working for British Aircraft Corporation, in the guided weapons division, so I worked in, all sorts of GW tasks." [21:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1301) > "the apprenticeship that I took was a five-year apprenticeship, and it meant when I wasn't at university, I was back in the factory in Stevenage." [25:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1525) > "So when I moved from England to Canada, I started working for the telecommunications industry. Bell Canada and Northern Telecom had an R&D group called Bell Northern Research," [26:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1577) > "I left Bell Northern Research in 1991, and I began to branch out on my own. So I've worked in, in cost reduction, where you've got large complex products, and you need to get better margin out of them." [27:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1633) > "those of you that are interested that would like my Society of Economic Geology paper on the use of neuroplasticity in mining from 2011, happy to send it to you." [32:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1951) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Host Petro du Pisani talks with Dr Clifford Saunders, who calls himself the Brain Reprogramming Doctor, about neuroplasticity. Saunders traces his path from electrical engineering through applied psychology to cybernetics. He describes how his eczema cleared, which he credits to yoga and dehypnosis. He guides the host through a ritual for asking the brain questions to work on during sleep and explains how simulations differ from emulations. He shares business cases from optical switching and the steelmaker Dofasco, argues that humans outfeel AI, and cites a mining experiment that found two years of business experience within two days. **Key ideas** - Saunders argues the brain is plastic at every scale, from a single person to a 50,000-employee company, and that belief systems are the biggest bottleneck. ([02:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=148) [02:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=152) [02:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=170) [03:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=205)) - Saunders uses his own recovery from severe eczema as evidence that anyone can reprogram their responses. ([05:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=318) [08:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=490) [09:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=542) [09:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=551)) - Saunders says you can pose a question to your brain through a grounding, breathing and eye-rolling ritual, and let it work on the question overnight. ([10:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=640) [11:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=693) [11:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=716) [12:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=773) [13:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=806)) - Saunders distinguishes single-user simulations from multi-user 'cartoon sketch' emulations, which speed up time so teams see cause and effect and change their beliefs. ([21:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1293) [22:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1348) [23:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1389) [24:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1487)) - Saunders argues that firms competing only on price, delivery and quality fall into competitive convergence; Dofasco broke out by finding a fourth buyer criterion. ([27:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1679) [29:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1750) [29:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1793)) - Saunders claims robots can outthink humans but humans outfeel them, so AI should be treated as a tool and a friend. ([30:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1812) [31:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1863) [31:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1888) [31:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1895)) - Saunders reports that a mining experiment measured a neuroplastic effect equal to two years of business experience in two days. ([32:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1939) [32:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1951) [33:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1983) [33:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1993)) **Talking to your brain** ([10:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=640) [11:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=693) [11:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=716) [12:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=773) [13:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=806) [34:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=2060)) 1. Let it come to your mind that talking to your brain is even possible. 2. Ground yourself by becoming aware of your feet. 3. Calm yourself with three very long, deep breaths, paying attention to the exhale reflex. 4. Close your eyes, roll them up until you feel eye strain, relax them and keep them closed. 5. Glance at notes, a sketch, a model or a doodle representing the question for your brain. 6. Do this at night so your brain can work on the question while you sleep. **Lessons** - Saunders suggests treating the 'it won't work for me' voice as just another pattern rather than a fact. ([14:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=855) [14:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=857)) - Saunders advises not taking sleep for granted; he uses each sleep cycle to have his brain prepare material. ([33:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=2039) [34:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=2046) [34:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=2060)) - Saunders cautions against getting stuck in one methodology and says to rule nothing out, because we simply don't know. ([16:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1013)) - Saunders argues that looking beyond price, delivery and quality for an invisible buyer criterion can create a point of difference. ([27:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1679) [29:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1750) [29:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1793)) - Saunders reports that when teams are pushed to squeeze their thinking, they find savings themselves. ([27:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1664) [30:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1809)) **Who it's for:** Listeners curious about neuroplasticity and self-change, and people who want a simple practice for problem-solving during sleep. Also executives and change managers interested in using team learning environments and emulations to shift belief systems. **Facts stated in the episode** - Saunders says he was born with atopic eczema covering sixty-five percent of his body. ([05:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=318)) - Saunders says it takes about 250 milliseconds to become aware of the meaning of what is said. ([10:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=659)) - Saunders left Bell Northern Research in 1991 to work independently. ([27:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1633)) - Saunders says Dofasco had downsized from fifteen thousand to seventy-five hundred people in the early nineties. ([28:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1708)) - Saunders wrote a Society of Economic Geology paper on neuroplasticity in mining in 2011. ([32:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1951)) - Saunders reports a measured effect of two years' business experience within two days. ([33:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1983)) - Saunders says yogis have known about the plasticity of the brain for 5,000 years. ([10:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=629)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Can adults really change or rewire their brains?** A: Saunders says yes. He argues the old idea of a brain fixed from birth held change back. He uses his own recovery from eczema as proof and says the brain can rewire itself by the equivalent of two years of business experience in two days. ([02:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=170) [09:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=542) [33:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1983)) **Q: How do I get my brain to solve a problem while I sleep?** A: Saunders says to accept that it is possible, ground yourself through your feet and take three long breaths. Then close your eyes, roll them up until they strain and relax them. Glance at notes or a sketch of the question, ideally at night. ([10:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=640) [11:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=693) [11:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=716) [12:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=773) [13:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=806)) **Q: What is the difference between a simulation and an emulation?** A: Saunders says simulations are usually single-user environments for training a specific task. Emulations are rougher 'cartoon sketches' of, say, a business that many people use at once, with time sped up so they see cause and effect and change their belief systems. ([22:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1348) [23:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1389) [24:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1487)) **Q: Will AI end up making all our decisions for us?** A: Saunders argues that robots can decide, hear and see, but humans turn data into feelings, which gives them a lasting point of difference. He calls AI a tool and a friend with no intention or life cycle. ([31:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1863) [31:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1888) [31:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1895)) **Q: What books on neuroplasticity does Clifford Saunders recommend?** A: He recommends starting with The Woman Who Changed the Brain by Barbara Arrowsmith Young. He says she grew brain substrate through neurological deficits she was born with. He also mentions The Brain's Way of Healing. ([16:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=961) [16:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=977)) **Q: How did Dofasco use new thinking to get out of a commodity trap?** A: Saunders says its executives realised that every competitor sold on price, delivery and quality. They looked for a fourth buyer criterion and placed top metallurgists and engineers inside car makers' design teams, so they knew in advance what chemistries would be needed. ([27:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1679) [28:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1708) [29:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1750) [29:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1793)) **Q: What is Clifford Saunders' professional background?** A: He took an undergraduate degree in electrical engineering and a master's in applied psych through British Aircraft Corporation, and did a five-year apprenticeship in Stevenage. He then worked at Bell Northern Research in Canada before going out on his own in 1991. ([06:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=371) [06:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=399) [25:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1525) [26:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1577) [27:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1633)) ### Passage: From eczema and engineering to brain reprogramming [05:46–08:40, 527 words] Note (AI): The guest's own account of his degrees, his work with EEG, yoga and dehypnosis, and how he says his eczema cleared; the basis of his credibility. Clifford Saunders, guest [05:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=346): > And at the age of nineteen, a friend of mine suggested that I start yoga, Raja yoga, to see if I could do something at least to clean, at least to relax more, because it was just horrendous. You don't even realize you're running a chronic panic attack. I had to do something, so I took my undergraduate in electrical engineering. And electrical engineering is a far cry from theater, as you can guess, and I railed at this whole thing. But I found out that I was pretty damn good at engineering. I got a first. And the company that I was working with, British Aircraft Corporation, for those of us that got firsts in, in our year, they offered us a master's in, say, applied psych. I took a master's in applied psych. Because they were interested in the human-machine interface. How can we streamline the interface between a human with intentions and the machine to carry it out? So my master's is in applied psych, and the interesting thing here is when I'd finished my undergraduate, I now knew how information flows within healthy and unhealthy circuits. I'd worked with them, I'd debugged them, I'd tuned them. And now I've got the chance to actually work with whole humans, and we had to stick the EEG electrodes on, on patients' heads, if you like, for the epilepsy clinic. And so now I got the chance to see information actually flowing within healthy and unhealthy brains. And now I'm putting two and two together because now I'm saying, maybe I wonder if something like that's happening with me, where I've got some circuit that's not working properly. My PhD is in cybernetics. I've always been interested in different cultures. That's, you know, I lived in Singapore as a kid. I had a fantastic time when I came out to South Africa. I love the world. I love to live all over. Over the world. I think the world is amazing. It's just the most amazing. What a bit of luck. You know, the next nearest planet is 250 million light years away, and there's no bus for some time. So I just think this is an amazing planet. Along the way, as I was studying yoga, I was introduced to a fellow in the West Coast of the States who talked about dehypnosis. And when I say to him, what do you mean by dehypnosis? He would say, well, Clifford, you've done a wonderful job of hypnotizing yourself into believing what it is you believe you believe. You don't need more hypnosis, Clifford. You need to interrupt those hypnotic patterns. You need to dehypnotize yourself. Well, by the time I finished all of that, 25 years ago, I realized that my skin had got better, and I no longer had it. And so what I've assembled over the years are many, many, many different techniques. Nowadays, we have them under the rubric of neuroplasticity, but they're techniques that allow our brain Which, by the way, listening to what I'm saying, the consequences that our brains are capable of reprogramming themselves, reprogramming themselves while we sleep. ### Passage: The technique for talking to your brain [10:40–13:36, 531 words] Note (AI): A step-by-step, guided walk-through of the ritual the guest uses to pose questions to his brain, which listeners can try themselves. Clifford Saunders, guest [10:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=640): > And so what we do is we just realize for a minute that in order for you to be able to understand what it is that I'm saying, it is your brain that is decoding the words, deriving the meaning, and then presenting them to you consciously. That's a trick, and it takes about 250 milliseconds from the moment, the instant of now, for you to become aware of the implications of what it is I'm saying. We don't normally see the 250 milliseconds that it's there. So what we want to do is we want to be respectful of this fact. It's not an it. It's three pound of liver, as I like to call it. I do that just to see if it'll twist me on, right? But very respectfully, this is my brain. This is me. This is creating me. It's amazing, and it turns out to be very simple to be able to set up that communication pattern. The first thing is, is let it come to your mind that this is even possible. And that's, if you think about it, a gift that your brain will give you or not. If it occurs to you, you know, I think I'd like to talk to my brain, you're already on that bit of the path. The next thing you want to do is, is I like to anchor myself. If you're lying on bed, you can't do it with your feet, but if you're sitting on a chair, or as I'm doing at the minute, standing, become aware of your feet and ground yourself. Grounding is important. So once you've grounded yourself, you now need to calm yourself. The quickest way of calming yourself that I know are three very long, deep breaths where you pay attention to the exhale reflex. Okay? So let's do it together. Let's do it together. Petro du Pisani, host [12:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=735): > Okay. Clifford Saunders, guest [12:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=736): > So just settle yourself down. That's it. Beautiful. And now we're just going to take three deep breaths. You know this routine. Let's do it. First deep breath. Nice deep breath. Excellent, Pet. Very good. And if you haven't already closed your eyes, please close them. And with your eyelids closed, just roll your eyes up to the top of your head till you feel a bit of eye strain, and relax your eyes, and keep your eyes closed. Now that's quite a ritual. I think I'd like to talk to my brain. Ground myself. Three deep breaths. Close my eyes, roll my eyes up to the top of my head till I feel a bit of eye strain, relax my eyes, and keep my eyes closed. It can only mean one thing, and that is, you'd like to have a chat with your brain. So sometimes it's handy just to be there with yourself for a few minutes. In this case, it's not appropriate. That if you wanted to be talking to your brain at this moment, you would glance at some notes you'd made, perhaps a sketch or a little model or a doodle, whatever it is your brain knows because it's created the question for you to ask it to ask itself. ### Passage: Simulations versus emulations as learning environments [21:33–24:56, 586 words] Note (AI): Explains how multi-user 'cartoon sketch' emulations speed up time so teams see cause and effect, and why that shifts belief systems. Clifford Saunders, guest [21:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1293): > So just to paint the picture for the audience, because you're kind of a few steps ahead, let's start off with the idea of a simulation. So part of my education was working for British Aircraft Corporation, in the guided weapons division, so I worked in, all sorts of GW tasks. One of the things that we, British Aircraft Corporation with the Ministry of Defense, very interested in, in is shortening the time to train someone to do something. Especially something on a very expensive piece of equipment. You don't want people to go out and learn by doing on a great big tank, right? That's very inefficient. It breaks the tank. What you need to do in that environment then is to create a simulation. And what you want to be doing is you want to be how well we're going to learn that task. Generally speaking, you want it, realistic up to a point beyond which you don't need to make it more realistic. Simulations tend to be single user environments, or they tend to be played through as, you know, in terms of, say, mind change, you run a simulation, you will run a series and you'll see how an instance plays out. So that's a simulation. Now, an emulation is different in some respects. You asked me a bit earlier who my favorite cartoon character is, and out popped Popeye, my surprise. So we're able to recognize that Popeye is a character, even though we're never confused for a minute. To think it's a real person. Nevertheless, we can learn a lot from, from Popeye and Bluto and Olive Oil, can't we? Cartoon sketch. So I want you to think for a minute that an emulation is a cartoon sketch of, let's say, a business, but a cartoon sketch designed in such a way that many people can interact with that sketch at the same time, and that if we play some tricks and we scale it right, we can actually speed time up so that our brains get to see the cause-effect nature of the decisions that they're making almost in real time, sufficiently close for our brain to be able to make the connection to, if I cut down the amount of money I spend in maintenance, My next quarter looks great, and then I go out of business in the back end of the year. Now, as you, all of your friends, now to play with, say, an emulation of, let's say, and emulations can be of all sizes. It depends on what the non-negotiable business goal is, like where are we taking this? And that might take a little bit of time. It might be iterative, but assuming you know what your, you know, steady profitability, regardless of gold price between these two parameters, now you get your team to be able to play with this cartoon emulation sketch in real time and get more or less immediate feedback. Which then has the power, it begins now immediately to affect the premotor cortex, the prefrontal, that part of our brains that contains our belief systems of what we must do to get things done. And so I hope that's not too wordy for you. They're both in the same category of learning environment, a simulation and an emulation. They're both training environments. One's generally one-on-one for a single type of task, and emulation is a broader, rougher sketch that has a massive effect on the, on belief systems. ### Passage: Dofasco escapes the commodity trap [27:59–30:12, 423 words] Note (AI): A client case study: a downsized steelmaker finds a fourth buyer criterion beyond price, delivery and quality and turns it into a point of difference. Clifford Saunders, guest [27:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1679): > From there, I moved into steel, and there's a company now that's been bought by the, by the French, and now the French by the, by the Indians called Dofasco. And Dofasco In its day was the most profitable and innovative, steel manufacturing companies in North America, if not the world. So they saw the things that I was doing and said, would I come and help them think about their next generation? What would, what needs to happen next? And at that time, this is in the early nineties, they'd gone through a very large downsizing, and they'd gone from fifteen thousand to seventy-five hundred people, and their morale was in the, in the gutter. It was terrible. And I was brought in as part of the team. They did a tremendous amount of wonderful team building work and so on, and essentially my job was to work with the executive team and get them to think, okay, Where is the steel industry going to next? They hadn't realized that they'd fall into a commodity trap because when they asked them, why do people buy steel from you? They said, well, it's price delivery and quality. So why do they drive, buy steel from your competitor over the road? That's price delivery and quality. What about US steel? It's price delivery and quality. So if all of you are competing on price delivery and quality, you're bound to be driving yourselves out of business due to competitive convergence. What is the fourth invisible buyer criteria that isn't on the table and no one thinks about at the minute except for this PDQ? It's not going to be as important as PDQ, but it'll become a point of difference. And out of that Discovery, they then discovered what I call the door in the wall. They discovered that the way that they had been looking at the problem looked as if you couldn't get through it, but as soon as you added this invisible component, well, what's the fourth buyer criteria? Suddenly it's like, well, wait a minute, there's lots of things we can do for the fourth buyer criteria. And what they did, just to finish the story in its famous case study, they deployed into Toyota, Ford, Chrysler, and all the other car manufacturers at their own expense, the top-end metallurgists and engineers in the design team so that they knew in advance what chemistries they would need and already have the process working. You get that by squeezing your thinking. ### Passage: Why humans outfeel artificial intelligence [30:12–32:03, 342 words] Note (AI): The guest's argument, lobe by lobe, that feeling is the human point of difference and that AI should be treated as a tool. Petro du Pisani, host [30:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1812): > With the rise of artificial intelligence and all of those things that are happening in our world at the moment, do you think we're going to get to a point where machines are going to make all our decisions for us, or are we still going to be using our brains? Clifford Saunders, guest [30:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1825): > Oh, that's such a super question. Let's just talk a little bit about number and Number theory. When we say the machine is thinking, it is following a series of algorithms that it has learnt. So now I'm picking up a brain cap. The front part of the brain, the frontal lobe, is where we make decisions. A robot can make decisions. The side portion of our brain contains our temporal lobes, where our hearing happens. That's very funny. Stop it, Frank. And a robot can hear. And we're able to see. We have an occipital lobe and see things, and a robot can see things too. But there's one huge difference between a human and a robot, and that is the parietal lobe. We are capable of taking the bit stream, the data, because we are alive, through some sort of magic we don't understand, and turn it into feelings. If we didn't feel our feelings, then we would be robots, and we would need to be frightened of the damn things taking over, because we'd have no point of difference. Robots can outthink us, decide us, hear us, and see us, but we outfeel them always, infinitely. And so from my perspective, they're tools, they're friends, get on the same side of them. They have no intention, they don't have a life cycle. If you said it that in such a way that they now start to make your life miserable, pay attention to that. I mean, I will absolutely guarantee artificial intelligence will squeeze us whether we like it or not to the next stage of our, quote, evolution or involution, no doubt about it. But we're up for the challenge, and we are alive, and we feel. ### Passage: Two years of experience in two days, and sleep [32:19–34:32, 395 words] Note (AI): The guest cites a mining experiment measuring the size of the neuroplastic effect and describes how he used sleep cycles to prepare. Clifford Saunders, guest [32:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1939): > A little bit earlier, I took Petra, and I hope you tailgated, on this idea of talking to your brain. Now, this is not a theoretical thing. Let's ask ourselves, and those of you that are interested that would like my Society of Economic Geology paper on the use of neuroplasticity in mining from 2011, happy to send it to you. But during that experiment, the experiment The neuroscientists that were part of the team, business neuroscientists in the States, we were able to set up a rough and ready experiment to quantify the size of the neuroplastic effect. Roughly speaking. And so what we discovered was we were able to set up some metrics, and this is where you need to be sitting down. Your brain has the capacity to reprogram itself, reconceptualize itself, reappraise itself, rewire itself, the equivalent of two years' worth of unique business experience within two days. That's the size of the effect. The fact that we don't utilize it hardly at all is irrelevant. The fact is our brains are very, very fluid. From this point forward, we can be assured that if we're not getting what we want, it's not to do with the inherent capacity of our brains to be able to change themselves. It has to be something like, I don't know, our imagination or some other boundary condition you don't know about, but that's not going to be the asymptote. So I live this stuff every day. I know this stuff works. So when you ask me, how many sleep cycles ago did you ask me to do this, Petra, roughly? Petro du Pisani, host [33:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=2035): > Probably about a week ago. Clifford Saunders, guest [33:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=2037): > Okay, so seven sleep cycles to go. So the first thing I want the audience to realize is, I don't want you to take sleep for granted anymore. It is a hugely important thing. The English say fortnight for a reason. Once upon a time, we counted nights, not days. In the olden days, there were groups of people that realized the magic was happening at night. So the sleep cycle now becomes important. Then when Petra asked me, I then had, let's say, seven sleep cycles between then and now to ask my brain to dig through, find stuff, and make it just as kick-ass and interesting as I could possibly do every night. That's what I do. ### Quotes > "address the largest of all bottlenecks, which is between their ears," > — Clifford Saunders, guest · [02:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=152) > "the next nearest planet is 250 million light years away, and there's no bus for some time." > — Clifford Saunders, guest · [07:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=453) > "You don't need more hypnosis, Clifford. You need to interrupt those hypnotic patterns. You need to dehypnotize yourself." > — Clifford Saunders, guest · [08:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=481) > "if I can do it, anyone can do it," > — Clifford Saunders, guest · [09:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=551) > "It's three pound of liver, as I like to call it." > — Clifford Saunders, guest · [11:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=676) > "a little voice that goes, yeah, but it won't work for me. That's just another pattern." > — Clifford Saunders, guest · [14:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=857) > "You get that by squeezing your thinking." > — Clifford Saunders, guest · [30:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1809) > "Robots can outthink us, decide us, hear us, and see us, but we outfeel them always, infinitely." > — Clifford Saunders, guest · [31:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1888) > "the equivalent of two years' worth of unique business experience within two days. That's the size of the effect." > — Clifford Saunders, guest · [33:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1993) > "The English say fortnight for a reason. Once upon a time, we counted nights, not days." > — Clifford Saunders, guest · [34:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=2046) ### Claims > "the mining industry will make large moves forward when they address the largest of all bottlenecks, which is between their ears, the belief systems that they have about how work needs to get done." > — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Applied neuroscience in business · [02:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=148) > "the idea that the brain is very plastic, and what has in the past been extremely difficult to achieve, in part has been due to the notion that the brain is rigid and fixed from the age of, of birth," > — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Neuroplasticity · [02:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=170) > "those principles of neuroplasticity apply across all scales of human endeavor, both from the very large fifty thousand individual employees in the large multinational company, right down to you and I, individual," > — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Neuroplasticity · [03:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=205) > "we're here in Canada to record a series of introductory courses to neuroplasticity, to codify it." > — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Neuroplasticity · [03:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=235) > "I was born with a horrendous case of atop dermatitis eczema, sixty-five percent covered from day one." > — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Guest career background · [05:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=318) > "But I found out that I was pretty damn good at engineering. I got a first. And the company that I was working with, British Aircraft Corporation, for those of us that got firsts in, in our year, they offered us a master's in, say, applied psych." > — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Guest career background · [06:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=371) > "So my master's is in applied psych, and the interesting thing here is when I'd finished my undergraduate, I now knew how information flows within healthy and unhealthy circuits." > — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Guest career background · [06:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=399) > "well, Clifford, you've done a wonderful job of hypnotizing yourself into believing what it is you believe you believe. You don't need more hypnosis, Clifford. You need to interrupt those hypnotic patterns." > — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Neuroplasticity · [07:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=473) > "Well, by the time I finished all of that, 25 years ago, I realized that my skin had got better, and I no longer had it." > — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Guest career background · [08:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=490) > "So if I have been able to put into effect neuroplastic ideas that now have changed my responses, if I can do it, anyone can do it, first." > — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Neuroplasticity · [09:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=542) > "There's this wonderful story of the scientist who discovered the Helix benzene ring. He dreamt of a snake eating his tail, and this led to the discovery of the benzene ring." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Sleep and problem solving · [09:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=569) > "That they have, they've known about the plasticity of the brain for 5,000 years. This yoga works because of it." > — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Neuroplasticity · [10:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=629) > "it takes about 250 milliseconds from the moment, the instant of now, for you to become aware of the implications of what it is I'm saying." > — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Talking to your brain · [10:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=659) > "The first thing is, is let it come to your mind that this is even possible." > — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Talking to your brain · [11:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=693) > "become aware of your feet and ground yourself. Grounding is important. So once you've grounded yourself, you now need to calm yourself. The quickest way of calming yourself that I know are three very long, deep breaths where you pay attention to the exhale reflex." > — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Talking to your brain · [11:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=716) > "Ground myself. Three deep breaths. Close my eyes, roll my eyes up to the top of my head till I feel a bit of eye strain, relax my eyes, and keep my eyes closed." > — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Talking to your brain · [12:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=773) > "you would glance at some notes you'd made, perhaps a sketch or a little model or a doodle, whatever it is your brain knows because it's created the question for you to ask it to ask itself." > — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Talking to your brain · [13:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=806) > "The thing that usually gets in our way is a little voice that goes, yeah, but it won't work for me. That's just another pattern." > — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Neuroplasticity · [14:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=855) > "So it makes sense to me, it's just logical, that you need to be a pretty good engineer. You need to be a pretty good psychologist. You need to understand systems and how they, they are working, what they're striving for." > — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Applied neuroscience in business · [15:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=902) > "The first book I'd like your audience to get is The Woman Who Changed the Brain by Barbara Arrowsmith Young." > — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Neuroplasticity · [16:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=961) > "She proved for herself that if she drove traffic through neurological deficits she was born with, she could grow substrate which had never been there before." > — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Neuroplasticity · [16:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=977) > "you do not want to get stuck into a methodology. This is how we think about it. Take the pill and see me in four days. We want to be able to say we can rule nothing out, even what we might think of as really weird science, because we simply don't know." > — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Neuroplasticity · [16:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1013) > "So part of my education was working for British Aircraft Corporation, in the guided weapons division, so I worked in, all sorts of GW tasks." > — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Guest career background · [21:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1301) > "Simulations tend to be single user environments, or they tend to be played through as, you know, in terms of, say, mind change, you run a simulation, you will run a series and you'll see how an instance plays out." > — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Simulations and emulations · [22:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1348) > "So I want you to think for a minute that an emulation is a cartoon sketch of, let's say, a business, but a cartoon sketch designed in such a way that many people can interact with that sketch at the same time," > — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Simulations and emulations · [23:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1389) > "One's generally one-on-one for a single type of task, and emulation is a broader, rougher sketch that has a massive effect on the, on belief systems." > — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Simulations and emulations · [24:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1487) > "the apprenticeship that I took was a five-year apprenticeship, and it meant when I wasn't at university, I was back in the factory in Stevenage." > — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Guest career background · [25:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1525) > "So when I moved from England to Canada, I started working for the telecommunications industry. Bell Canada and Northern Telecom had an R&D group called Bell Northern Research," > — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Guest career background · [26:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1577) > "One of them is called interpretive structural modeling, which is a way of taking very complex problems, breaking them into manageable chunks that a human short-term memory can take care of," > — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Applied neuroscience in business · [26:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1610) > "I left Bell Northern Research in 1991, and I began to branch out on my own. So I've worked in, in cost reduction, where you've got large complex products, and you need to get better margin out of them." > — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Guest career background · [27:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1633) > "So I worked on optical switching lines back in the early nineties, and were able to, I wouldn't get, you know, hundreds of millions of bucks out of the, out of the cost by getting them to think that they, they found the savings." > — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Applied neuroscience in business · [27:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1664) > "at that time, this is in the early nineties, they'd gone through a very large downsizing, and they'd gone from fifteen thousand to seventy-five hundred people, and their morale was in the, in the gutter." > — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Applied neuroscience in business · [28:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1708) > "So if all of you are competing on price delivery and quality, you're bound to be driving yourselves out of business due to competitive convergence." > — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Applied neuroscience in business · [29:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1750) > "they deployed into Toyota, Ford, Chrysler, and all the other car manufacturers at their own expense, the top-end metallurgists and engineers in the design team so that they knew in advance what chemistries they would need" > — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Applied neuroscience in business · [29:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1793) > "But there's one huge difference between a human and a robot, and that is the parietal lobe. We are capable of taking the bit stream, the data, because we are alive, through some sort of magic we don't understand, and turn it into feelings." > — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Artificial intelligence and feelings · [31:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1863) > "And so from my perspective, they're tools, they're friends, get on the same side of them. They have no intention, they don't have a life cycle." > — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Artificial intelligence and feelings · [31:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1895) > "those of you that are interested that would like my Society of Economic Geology paper on the use of neuroplasticity in mining from 2011, happy to send it to you." > — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Applied neuroscience in business · [32:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1951) > "Your brain has the capacity to reprogram itself, reconceptualize itself, reappraise itself, rewire itself, the equivalent of two years' worth of unique business experience within two days." > — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Neuroplasticity · [33:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1983) > "So the first thing I want the audience to realize is, I don't want you to take sleep for granted anymore. It is a hugely important thing." > — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Sleep and problem solving · [33:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=2039) > "I then had, let's say, seven sleep cycles between then and now to ask my brain to dig through, find stuff, and make it just as kick-ass and interesting as I could possibly do every night." > — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Sleep and problem solving · [34:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=2060) > "Brain science is going through its uber moment, and so we are going to see vast changes in consciousness" > — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Neuroplasticity · [35:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=2139) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Petro du Pisani talks to Dr. Clifford Saunders (The Brain Reprogramming Doctor) about reprogramming your brain. Connect with Clifford on LinkedIn · Connect with Petro · Solid Gold Podcasts ## #005 WiMSA | Gender diversity in the mining industry - Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/005-gender-diversity-in-the-mining-industry/ - Date: 2018-06-14 (as at 2018-06-14) - Guest: Noleen Pauls, Lindi Nakedi - Host: Petro du Pisani - Themes: Gender diversity in mining, Women's early careers, Quotas and mindset change, Business case for diversity, Mentoring and networking, Socialisation and equal caregiving, Women in Mining South Africa - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/991992 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Noleen Pauls - Women in Mining South Africa (WiMSA) - Has worked in the mining industry since 1992, starting in Baputswana, for government, mining houses and consulting. Chose geology after first wanting to study archaeology. In their own words: > "I've been working in the mining industry since 1992 and started in Baputswana, which just shows how long it has been. And during that time, I've worked for government, obviously Baputswana in South Africa, as well as mining houses and consulting." [02:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=167) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### About the guest: Lindi Nakedi - Women in Mining South Africa (WiMSA) - Background in recruitment. Has worked in the industry since 2010, first assisting her geologist husband with running the business. Owns a company and came to WiMSA as an entrepreneur. In their own words: > "I've been working in the industry now since 2010. Officially. And I started off just trying to assist my geologist husband, who was always focused on the technical work and not the business. And so I came in to assist with the running of the business." [03:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=184) > "I mean, that's how I came to WiMSA, because I own a company and I needed to start meeting up with other women who are in the industry where I can look for opportunities." [35:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=2121) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Host Petro du Pisani talks with Noleen Pauls, a geologist in mining since 1992, and Lindi Nakedi, a former recruiter who has run a mining-related business since 2010. Both are from Women in Mining South Africa. They recount their early careers, discuss how accepted women now are, and debate quotas under the mining charter against mindset change and merit. They also cover the business case for diversity, mentoring and the 'pull her down syndrome', how children are socialised and equal caregiving, and what WiMSA offers members. **Key ideas** - Lindi argues that quotas alone become box-ticking; meaningful change requires a mindset shift driven from the leadership down. ([13:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=792) [14:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=852) [14:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=853)) - Noleen argues there are not enough women in mining to fill management quotas, so more must be attracted, and once hired they must prove themselves on merit. ([14:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=865) [15:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=909)) - Noleen makes a business case: half of technical graduates are women, and a WiM UK study found more diverse mining companies made more money. ([24:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1474) [25:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1516) [25:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1527)) - Both guests see mentoring by women who have walked the path as vital. Noleen favours intercompany programmes because your boss cannot easily be your candid mentor. ([26:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1603) [27:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1630) [28:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1684) [28:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1689)) - Noleen names 'pull her down syndrome', where women who reached senior roles protect their positions. WiMSA aims to discourage it. ([29:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1748) [29:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1750)) - Lindi stresses how children are socialised, and both she and the host call for equal caregiving opportunities for men and women. ([21:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1275) [32:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1932) [32:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1966)) - Noleen suggests some exclusion, such as the old boys club, may partly be women's perception or inherent bias rather than fact. ([10:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=628) [20:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1235)) **Lessons** - Noleen and the host advise graduates to work hard, earn credibility in technical work and find a mentor. ([23:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1398) [37:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=2245) [37:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=2245)) - Lindi says showing a strong work ethic earns respect regardless of gender, and young people should not expect things to come easy. ([22:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1354) [23:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1432) [24:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1446)) - Lindi argues diversity targets need leadership ownership rather than compliance box-ticking. ([13:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=792) [14:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=852)) - Noleen warns that women who succeed should help rather than block other women. ([26:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1603) [29:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1748)) **Who it's for:** Women entering or working in South African mining, graduates in geoscience and engineering, HR and hiring leaders facing mining charter diversity targets, and anyone interested in mentoring and networking for women in male-dominated industries. **Facts stated in the episode** - Noleen has worked in the mining industry since 1992. ([02:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=167)) - Lindi has worked in the industry since 2010. ([03:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=184)) - WiMSA started in 2010 with three or four women as a networking platform. ([29:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1791)) - The host cites a Mining Weekly article saying female representation rose to over thirteen percent. ([12:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=736)) - Noleen says fifty percent of people coming out of university on the technical side are women. ([24:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1474)) - Noleen says a WiM UK study of the top 500 mining companies found more diverse teams made more money. ([25:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1516)) - Noleen says women in mining groups in Canada, Australia and the UK have about fifty percent men at events. ([30:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1837)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: What was it like for women starting out in South African mining?** A: Noleen says she usually had only one female colleague and bosses who were protective, perhaps patronising. Lindi says her own insecurity held her back, and clients still wanted to talk to her husband rather than her as owner. ([05:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=335) [06:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=417) [07:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=440) [07:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=449) [08:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=498)) **Q: Are quotas enough to get more women into mining management?** A: Lindi says quotas become box-ticking without a mindset change driven by leadership. Noleen says there are not enough women to fill the quotas, so the industry must attract more, and women must still prove themselves on merit. ([12:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=723) [13:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=792) [14:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=852) [14:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=865) [15:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=909)) **Q: Is there a business case for more women in mining?** A: Noleen says half of technical graduates are women, so all-male teams use half the talent pool. She cites a WiM UK study of the top 500 mining companies in which more diverse teams made more money. ([24:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1474) [25:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1516)) **Q: Why do women in mining need mentors from outside their company?** A: Noleen says a mentor inside your company may be your boss, whom you cannot tell you disagree. Lindi says it is important to learn from someone who has walked the path before. ([27:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1630) [28:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1684) [28:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1689)) **Q: What is the pull her down syndrome?** A: Noleen describes women who have done the hard work to reach senior positions and then protect them rather than help other women. WiMSA is trying to discourage this. ([29:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1748) [29:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1750)) **Q: What does Women in Mining South Africa do?** A: Noleen says WiMSA began in 2010 as a networking platform and created a patron initiative with high-ranking women. Lindi says it expanded to support entrepreneurs, partnered with SAIMM on an entrepreneurship forum, and works with students. ([29:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1791) [34:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=2072) [34:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=2084) [35:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=2121) [35:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=2138)) **Q: What advice do they give graduates entering mining?** A: Noleen: work hard, don't be scared, stand your ground and find a mentor. The host advises getting your stripes in technical work, and Lindi says be willing to start at the bottom and work your way up. ([22:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1354) [23:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1398) [37:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=2245)) **Q: Has acceptance of women in mining improved?** A: Noleen says acceptance has improved and women can now work underground. She still perceives that men are often preferred for jobs and that decisions are made in old boys' settings. Lindi says women service providers still struggle to get doors opened. ([09:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=586) [09:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=598) [10:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=612) [10:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=628) [11:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=681)) ### Passage: Lindi on insecurity and being bypassed as owner [07:20–08:39, 243 words] Note (AI): Lindi's first-hand account of self-doubt as an outsider, and of clients who addressed her husband rather than her as the business owner. Lindi Nakedi, guest [07:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=440): > I don't think for me it was ever a problem that I was the only woman going to a meeting and I'm on, I'm the only woman. I think my only problem was that because I didn't study anything mining or geology, then my own insecurities were the ones that put me on a back foot. And that's when I used to feel as if I need to extra prepare for a meeting or whatever so that everybody can realize that, no, I know why I'm here and I understand why I'm here. So my own insecurities sort of put me on the back foot and I never felt like anybody was discriminating against me. But I suppose also over time, when you start seeing how people communicate with you or react to you, you realize that it's not just the fact that maybe I'm not from the mining industry, but for the fact that I'm a woman. And I think one other thing that I, I started noticing is that They'd know I'm the owner of the business, but they'd still want to talk to my geologist husband, even though he tells them, look, I'm not the one who makes the decision when it comes to this business. This is the person you should actually be talking to. And you still have people who say, oh, okay, no, great, I hear that. Can we have a meeting? You know, that was annoying. ### Passage: How accepted are women in mining today [09:46–12:01, 450 words] Note (AI): Both guests weigh the progress made against the remaining barriers: the old boys club perception and women service providers finding doors closed. Noleen Pauls, guest [09:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=586): > Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna start with the second part of your question. There definitely is a better acceptance, I think, throughout the entire industry, right from your colleagues to the bosses and HR. Although I think that there still would be an issue of where two people have applied for the same job, the guy would generally get it. And that's my own perception. I'm not saying that that's what it is, but that is my perception. Obviously, there's been a lot of changes. You know, when I first joined the industry, women weren't allowed to work underground, whereas, of course, now we can. And it's better. I think it's still a hard industry, and if you look at research, especially women in mining research, women do feel that they're still not accepted. They still feel that it's an old boys club because the guys go to the pub on a Friday afternoon or they play golf, and that's where the decisions are made, and women feel excluded from that. But then, of course, we have to look at At the fact that those are women's perceptions, and it's not necessarily what's happening. That's right. What do you Lindi Nakedi, guest [10:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=645): > think, Lindi? I think that there's an acceptance. There are people who are actually trying to say, look, I'm here, I'm willing to have any woman on my team when you look into different organizations. When I look at the business arena, though, I find that a lot of women will come to me at WiMSA events and say, I'm trying to break into the industry, I've got a certain service that I'm offering, but people think that I can't, or when I go and knock on any door, they don't open it because they feel I don't know the industry well enough, or I'm just not what they're looking for. And I think there we still need a lot of change in terms of I'm a service provider, I don't have to be a man, I don't have to be a woman, I just have to offer the service. And I think that's where I'm coming from all the time to say, never mind the fact that I'm a woman, let's put a cardboard box and cover my face Cover my body. Let's talk business and get it out the way. I don't think it should matter whether I'm a woman or a man if there's a deliverable. If there's an output that needs to be there, let me see if I can do that. And if I can't do that, then fine, move on to the next person, but not because they're a woman or because they're a man. ### Passage: Quotas versus mindset and merit [12:03–15:15, 592 words] Note (AI): Covers the mining charter targets, Lindi's argument that change must be leadership-driven rather than box-ticking, and Noleen's view on building the pipeline and on merit. Petro du Pisani, host [12:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=723): > In South Africa, diversity is a huge issue, or it's something that actually is starting to be legislated now. And diversity targets are part of our new mining charter, which hasn't been accepted yet. There's been a new proposal for our mining charter. I read an article in the Mining Weekly where they say that we've made big strides already, that we've gone from a minority representation to over thirteen percent representation, which in their eyes is a huge achievement. But if you look at the targets for the mining charter, it's at least probably twenty-five percent of, they say, black females in managements and Comes more as you go down lower through the ranks, and I would imagine that that matches on the other side with then also other colors also having twenty-five percent representation. So it's a huge change for us to have to go from thirteen percent to probably fifty percent female representation. What do you think it will take for us to achieve these sorts of targets? Lindi Nakedi, guest [13:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=782): > What do Petro du Pisani, host [13:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=782): > we need to Lindi Nakedi, guest [13:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=782): > change? Immediately in my head what comes is a mindset change, because I think with everything, there's a perception that everybody will have. So When people are being told, look, this is the quota, you must meet that, it doesn't talk to the perception or the mindset of a person, you know, because now all they have to do is tick a box, and it won't make the kind of difference it's supposed to make. Everybody complains about, but then don't we hire on merit? Don't we do this on merit? And for a mindset to say, look, it's not just about the merit now, because we're trying to level the playing field. What I need to do is to say, here's a level playing field. I need to up this. You know, if my pointer for men is at this level and for women it's here, it means I need to be getting it higher. Therefore, I am going to look at the qualified, I'm going to look at the experienced, and I'm going to start working towards making that happen. And in my mind, it's not that I'm being forced to do it, but I see that I need to make a change, and therefore I'm going to drive it, which is why I always say that if it's not driven from the leadership down, then it's a problem because you're not going to see the meaningful change that you actually want to see. Petro du Pisani, host [14:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=863): > Definitely. So what do you think we need to do now, Lindi? Noleen Pauls, guest [14:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=865): > Well, I think practically we have to look at the fact that there just aren't enough women in the mining industry to fill the quotas. And in order to do that, we need to attract more women to the mining industry. That doesn't mean that we're going to fill the quotas in the next ten years because the quotas are specifically for women in management. However, that is a good starting point. And just to build on Lindi's comment about merit, I always say to women, especially to the young girls, it's great to have legislation and to have that opportunity to be Somebody who is looked at because of a quota system, because our legislation is opening people's eyes to the fact that it's an issue and that we need to bring more women into the mining industry. But when you've got that position or you've gone for that interview, then you prove how good you are. ### Passage: Host's structured change management view of diversity [15:23–17:02, 367 words] Note (AI): The host sets out a change approach for this problem: define the end state, secure sponsorship from HR and hiring managers, then coach women. Petro du Pisani, host [15:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=923): > If we look at it from a sort of structured change management approach, one of the things that you do right at the beginning of a change project is you set what it's going to look like in the end. So what will it look like when we have the representation that we're looking for? And imagine what that looks like and paint that picture, because otherwise we're never going to know whether we've arrived at that point or not. And then from there, we work backwards. What are the things that we need to do to arrive at that vision in the end? So whose sponsorship do we need? I mean, do we, we need the HR people at the various mining companies' eyes to go open and say, there's a business case for having women in the mining industry, and we need the people who are doing the hiring to go, yes, we have to have a more diverse profile. If we don't get those guys on board and supporting this cause of getting more women into the mining industry, it's not going to happen either. And then from there on, it's all about, then we have to find the correct women and build their skills and coach them so that they can also be a part of this very challenging industry. But as much as we say it's challenging for women, the mining industry is challenging for everybody. It's not just challenging for women, it's for anybody. If you've been down to a, a mining face at the bottom of an underground mine, it's not a nice place to be working. Anybody who's going to work there is going to suffer. Everybody needs to understand that it's the same for men and women. And then The other thing that I'd like to add is then the whole coaching piece. So we have to coach women to be able to stand up for themselves, have their voices heard, and be part of that, and it needs to be a designed and facilitated process, I guess. So that's the structured sort of change management approach we have to think about what it's going to look like. ### Passage: Mentoring, sharing knowledge and pull her down syndrome [26:43–29:16, 447 words] Note (AI): Explains why mentoring across companies matters, and names the problem of senior women guarding their positions. Petro du Pisani, host [26:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1603): > So I think a big part of us having to make this transformation from where we currently are to where we want to get to is the training, coaching, mentoring part of it. And you guys are from Women in Mining South Africa, and it's a fantastic platform for this type of work to happen, where we actually pair people up with mentees and mentors go together. So what role do these types of practices play? Noleen Pauls, guest [27:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1630): > I think it's very important to have a intercompany mentoring program because within your company, your boss or your manager could very well be your mentor. So you can't really tell him that he's being a pain or that you disagree with what he's saying. And by no means are we saying within WiMSA that women should have women mentors, but it brings a whole different dynamic into a woman's career progression when she has somebody else who's been there, who's done that, and who can guide her in making the changes that she needs to do to get to the top position. Lindi Nakedi, guest [27:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1670): > That's right. Training, coaching, mentoring. So yes, it is important. I want to agree with Noleen on that, that in my language, sotho, They say, which is, if I directly translate it, is that the road is asked of those who have been there before. So it's important to actually have someone who has walked the path before and has seen and done what somebody else is looking at and saying, look, I like Noleen's profile, and I wish I could know how she made it and how she did it. And so for her to open up and be willing to mentor and guide. And I think that's where WMSA, you know, we're trying to find all those women with all that experience, that wealth of experience to open up to those who are still coming up and who want to learn and who want to become exactly what they are. So we need that. And it's not often that you find people who are willing to open up. You do find the very strange phenomenon where people want to keep their knowledge and keep their skills to themselves, which is What we're trying to encourage against now to say, look, let's teach each other, you know. Noleen Pauls, guest [29:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1740): > I do think that's something we see in the mining industry within women a lot, and the fact that they've done the hard work, they've got to the position where they are, and they're protecting their own positions, and we call it the pH syndrome, pull her down syndrome. Which is exactly, as Lindi said, what we're trying to discourage. ### Passage: What WiMSA does and how it grew [34:32–36:27, 316 words] Note (AI): Describes WiMSA's patron initiative, its entrepreneur support, its SAIMM partnership and its student mentoring. Noleen Pauls, guest [34:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=2072): > So WMSA was created as a networking platform, but we really quickly realized that we could offer so much more. Wherever we went, we were asked about where can we find role models. So we then created the patron initiative where we Approached high-ranking women in the mining industry who are now our patrons. And basically, it's just as Lindi had said already, saying they've done it, so we can do it too. Agreed. I think also Lindi Nakedi, guest [34:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=2099): > we then started moving to include entrepreneurs because we realized that there are women who are in the mining industry who are not necessarily working for a certain company, but working for themselves and needed the support as well to network and find opportunities through the very women that are within these organization. I mean, that's how I came to WiMSA, because I own a company and I needed to start meeting up with other women who are in the industry where I can look for opportunities. So it's sort of also started becoming more about saying, let's open up opportunities. Let's open up on information where we partnered with SAIMM for the entrepreneurship forum to say, what information can we give you to best empower you As you are navigating through the business arena. So WiMSA, it's like an information hub and network, and now it needs to grow and become maybe the place where all the information, especially the research part, information is important in this day and age. So we have to be that. Noleen Pauls, guest [36:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=2166): > And also, obviously, attracting women to the mining industry. So we deal quite a lot with students, and we try to get their mentors to help them make the transition from being a student to working in the environment, which you and I both know, Pietro, from going from varsity into the environment was quite hard, and you didn't even have that. ### Quotes > "I enjoyed being outside, I enjoyed geography, and yeah, I enjoyed beer. So a perfect fit for a geologist." > — Noleen Pauls, guest · [04:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=280) > "let's put a cardboard box and cover my face Cover my body. Let's talk business and get it out the way." > — Lindi Nakedi, guest · [11:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=696) > "if it's not driven from the leadership down, then it's a problem because you're not going to see the meaningful change" > — Lindi Nakedi, guest · [14:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=853) > "people respect you so much more when they see your work ethic." > — Lindi Nakedi, guest · [23:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1432) > "all of those who had a more diverse team actually made more money." > — Noleen Pauls, guest · [25:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1527) > "the road is asked of those who have been there before." > — Lindi Nakedi, guest · [28:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1684) > "we call it the pH syndrome, pull her down syndrome." > — Noleen Pauls, guest · [29:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1750) > "There is no organization like WiMSA because we would have achieved what we set out to do," > — Noleen Pauls, guest · [30:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1855) > "So we shouldn't be happy about having these little Trophies to say I am the only woman too and I think it's ridiculous." > — Lindi Nakedi, guest · [31:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1893) > "My advice would be work hard, don't be scared, stand your ground, and find a mentor." > — Noleen Pauls, guest · [37:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=2245) ### Claims > "I've been working in the mining industry since 1992 and started in Baputswana, which just shows how long it has been. And during that time, I've worked for government, obviously Baputswana in South Africa, as well as mining houses and consulting." > — Noleen Pauls, guest · topic: Women's early careers · [02:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=167) > "I've been working in the industry now since 2010. Officially. And I started off just trying to assist my geologist husband, who was always focused on the technical work and not the business. And so I came in to assist with the running of the business." > — Lindi Nakedi, guest · topic: Women's early careers · [03:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=184) > "My background is recruitment. And so I was doing a lot of work with people trying to place them in the right opportunities, matching them with the right type of clients. And at the end of the day, the one thing that I struggled with is the fact that with recruitment, you are never sure if that fit is actually going to be the one." > — Lindi Nakedi, guest · topic: Women's early careers · [03:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=211) > "It was actually an accident. I wanted to study archaeology, but realized that there wasn't very much work in South Africa at that point, and I decided to do the next best thing." > — Noleen Pauls, guest · topic: Women's early careers · [04:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=269) > "pretty much all the way through my career because I've always worked in really small companies or small divisions of big companies. They've mostly been myself and one female colleague, which was great because in university I was the only girl." > — Noleen Pauls, guest · topic: Women's early careers · [05:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=335) > "You know, my colleagues and my bosses were very supportive and incredibly protective. And looking back now, maybe a little bit patronizing. I mean, for example, one of my bosses, he would never let myself and my colleague work late because we weren't allowed to drive home in the dark." > — Noleen Pauls, guest · topic: Women's early careers · [06:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=417) > "I think my only problem was that because I didn't study anything mining or geology, then my own insecurities were the ones that put me on a back foot. And that's when I used to feel as if I need to extra prepare for a meeting" > — Lindi Nakedi, guest · topic: Women's early careers · [07:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=449) > "They'd know I'm the owner of the business, but they'd still want to talk to my geologist husband, even though he tells them, look, I'm not the one who makes the decision when it comes to this business." > — Lindi Nakedi, guest · topic: Gender diversity in mining · [08:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=498) > "You'll find that women are generally better qualified than their male colleagues, and we carry on learning. And maybe that might make the guys feel a little bit insecure." > — Noleen Pauls, guest · topic: Gender diversity in mining · [08:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=528) > "Although I think that there still would be an issue of where two people have applied for the same job, the guy would generally get it. And that's my own perception." > — Noleen Pauls, guest · topic: Gender diversity in mining · [09:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=598) > "You know, when I first joined the industry, women weren't allowed to work underground, whereas, of course, now we can." > — Noleen Pauls, guest · topic: Gender diversity in mining · [10:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=612) > "They still feel that it's an old boys club because the guys go to the pub on a Friday afternoon or they play golf, and that's where the decisions are made, and women feel excluded from that." > — Noleen Pauls, guest · topic: Gender diversity in mining · [10:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=628) > "And I think there we still need a lot of change in terms of I'm a service provider, I don't have to be a man, I don't have to be a woman, I just have to offer the service." > — Lindi Nakedi, guest · topic: Gender diversity in mining · [11:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=681) > "I read an article in the Mining Weekly where they say that we've made big strides already, that we've gone from a minority representation to over thirteen percent representation, which in their eyes is a huge achievement." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Quotas and mindset change · [12:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=736) > "So When people are being told, look, this is the quota, you must meet that, it doesn't talk to the perception or the mindset of a person, you know, because now all they have to do is tick a box, and it won't make the kind of difference it's supposed to make." > — Lindi Nakedi, guest · topic: Quotas and mindset change · [13:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=792) > "which is why I always say that if it's not driven from the leadership down, then it's a problem because you're not going to see the meaningful change that you actually want to see." > — Lindi Nakedi, guest · topic: Quotas and mindset change · [14:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=852) > "Well, I think practically we have to look at the fact that there just aren't enough women in the mining industry to fill the quotas. And in order to do that, we need to attract more women to the mining industry." > — Noleen Pauls, guest · topic: Quotas and mindset change · [14:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=865) > "But when you've got that position or you've gone for that interview, then you prove how good you are." > — Noleen Pauls, guest · topic: Quotas and mindset change · [15:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=909) > "one of the things that you do right at the beginning of a change project is you set what it's going to look like in the end. So what will it look like when we have the representation that we're looking for?" > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Quotas and mindset change · [15:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=926) > "biases are not always, like, obvious, and even within yourself, you are biased, like we are biased, because we assume that men aren't welcoming us into the mining industry, but maybe that is just an inherent bias, and it's not really the fact." > — Noleen Pauls, guest · topic: Gender diversity in mining · [20:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1235) > "How do I socialize them currently? What do they know about what's meant to be for girls or what's meant to be for boys? We don't do that anymore. We say, follow what you're passionate about, be yourself, and do what comes naturally to you." > — Lindi Nakedi, guest · topic: Socialisation and equal caregiving · [21:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1275) > "I had a chat with a young girl who was going to graduate, had a lovely bursary, and she just wanted to be in the office. And I say, but even if you're coming out with a degree, you're going to have to start and work your way up," > — Lindi Nakedi, guest · topic: Women's early careers · [22:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1354) > "one of the pieces of advice that I give to any young graduates is to get your stripes, you know, build your credibility. If you've studied a technical discipline, get out there and do a couple of years in that technical discipline." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Women's early careers · [23:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1398) > "So whether you're a man, whether you're a woman, you know, if you show that you're willing to work, then anybody else would be willing to respect you for that good work ethic." > — Lindi Nakedi, guest · topic: Women's early careers · [24:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1446) > "If you look at the fact that within the technical side, fifty percent of people coming out of university are women, then if you only have males on your team, you're pretty much using half of the pool of available talent." > — Noleen Pauls, guest · topic: Business case for diversity · [24:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1474) > "Wim UK did an article about basically to discuss the business case, and they looked at the top 500 mining companies, and all of those who had a more diverse team actually made more money." > — Noleen Pauls, guest · topic: Business case for diversity · [25:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1516) > "I think maybe the girls of the future might not necessarily have the same kind of qualities or traits that we were brought up with," > — Lindi Nakedi, guest · topic: Socialisation and equal caregiving · [26:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1586) > "I think it's very important to have a intercompany mentoring program because within your company, your boss or your manager could very well be your mentor. So you can't really tell him that he's being a pain or that you disagree with what he's saying." > — Noleen Pauls, guest · topic: Mentoring and networking · [27:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1630) > "So it's important to actually have someone who has walked the path before and has seen and done what somebody else is looking at" > — Lindi Nakedi, guest · topic: Mentoring and networking · [28:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1689) > "they're protecting their own positions, and we call it the pH syndrome, pull her down syndrome." > — Noleen Pauls, guest · topic: Mentoring and networking · [29:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1748) > "We started in 2010 with three or four women who realized that men actually know how to network and women really struggle with it. So it started as a networking platform for professional women." > — Noleen Pauls, guest · topic: Women in Mining South Africa · [29:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1791) > "because the other women groups, like in Canada, Australia, and the UK, they have about fifty percent men that come to the" > — Noleen Pauls, guest · topic: Mentoring and networking · [30:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1837) > "Where you don't have to have a woman still saying, I'm the first woman to have a drilling company, or I'm the only woman. It's not something to even celebrate because there are so many talented women out there." > — Lindi Nakedi, guest · topic: Gender diversity in mining · [31:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1871) > "We have courses where everybody learns how to control their emotions at work, where we have maternity and paternity leave on an equal scale, that it's not just women that get given off four months, but there's also something equal for men as well." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Socialisation and equal caregiving · [32:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1932) > "I think there was a lady who came to speak at one of the women in mining conferences, Monica Ospina. She's from Canada, and she was doing a study on the fact that if you're going" > — Lindi Nakedi, guest · topic: Socialisation and equal caregiving · [32:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1966) > "for them, it's all about work-life balance rather than working all the time. They really want to have that balance, and it's not a gender thing. I think it's a generational thing." > — Noleen Pauls, guest · topic: Socialisation and equal caregiving · [34:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=2046) > "So we then created the patron initiative where we Approached high-ranking women in the mining industry who are now our patrons." > — Noleen Pauls, guest · topic: Women in Mining South Africa · [34:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=2084) > "I mean, that's how I came to WiMSA, because I own a company and I needed to start meeting up with other women who are in the industry where I can look for opportunities." > — Lindi Nakedi, guest · topic: Women in Mining South Africa · [35:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=2121) > "Let's open up on information where we partnered with SAIMM for the entrepreneurship forum to say, what information can we give you to best empower you" > — Lindi Nakedi, guest · topic: Women in Mining South Africa · [35:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=2138) > "My advice would be work hard, don't be scared, stand your ground, and find a mentor." > — Noleen Pauls, guest · topic: Women's early careers · [37:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=2245) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Petro du Pisani talks to Noleen Pauls and Lindi Nakedi from 'Women in Mining South Africa (WiMSA)' about gender diversity in the mining industry. Connect with Petro · Solid Gold Podcasts ## #003 Dr. Barbra Trautline | Change Intelligence (CQ) - Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/003-change-intelligence-cq/ - Date: 2018-03-25 (as at 2018-03-25) - Guest: Barbra Trautline - Host: Petro du Pisani - Themes: Change Intelligence (CQ), Head, heart, hands styles, Resistance to change, Change leadership vs management, Women in male-dominated industries, Client case studies, Future of change profession - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/991994 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Barbra Trautline - change consultant, author, speaker, and researcher · Change Catalysts - Has over 25 years of experience equipping leaders to achieve transformational goals. Author of the book Change Intelligence. Holds a PhD in organizational psychology from the University of Michigan. In their own words: > "I started off in a, by obtaining my PhD in organizational psychology, and when I was in my graduate program, I got a part-time job at a consulting firm." [02:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=169) > "So from there ensued twenty years of helping companies in steel and other industries manage change. So in the beginning, again, it was a difficult economy, so a lot of our changes were, turnarounds, helping companies change to survive." [04:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=292) > "I've done a lot with IT implementations, mergers and acquisitions, so a lot with, again, helping companies deal with and be successful through major transformations." [05:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=313) > "So I did. I spent a year creating the certification program, which launched in 2014." [16:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1000) > "It was a joint venture between a US steel firm and a Japanese steel firm, and I worked with them for about five years on the people side of the startup." [30:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1827) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Petro du Pisani interviews Barbra Trautline, an organizational psychologist and the author of Change Intelligence. She traces her path from turnaround work in a bankrupt steel mill in the mid-eighties to developing CQ. She defines CQ as awareness of your own change leader style (heart, head or hands) plus the ability to adapt it. She applies the model to resistance, draws on patterns in her assessment database, and describes client work at a steel mill and at University Hospitals. The conversation also covers women in male-dominated industries and where the change management profession is heading. **Key ideas** - Trautline argues that the roughly seventy percent failure rate of major change has not moved in twenty years. She says the missing piece is the ability to lead change, not more management tools. ([04:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=292) [06:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=367) [06:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=390) [06:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=412)) - She defines CQ as awareness of one's change leadership style plus the ability to adapt it across people and situations. She says CQ, like EQ, can be learned. ([08:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=524) [09:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=546) [09:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=577)) - Her model has three styles. Heart leaders engage people, head leaders focus on the goal and vision, and hands leaders plan and execute. Each style is a strength that can be overdone. ([10:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=617) [10:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=649) [11:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=663) [11:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=679) [11:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=712) [12:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=725)) - She treats resistance as information about the leader. People may not get the change, may not want it, or may not be able to do it, and each calls for a different response. ([18:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1137) [18:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1137) [19:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1140) [19:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1195) [20:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1206) [20:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1226)) - Her database shows that executives tend to lead from the head while front lines lead from the heart. She says executives can unintentionally create resistance by communicating in the way that works for them. ([21:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1307) [22:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1334) [22:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1358)) - Trautline says the hands style is the least common, at about eighteen percent. She calls neglecting implementation and sustainment a critical reason change fails. ([38:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=2309) [38:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=2324) [39:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=2358)) - She positions CQ as a complement to change management toolkits, which she calls baseline competency. ([13:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=790) [13:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=790) [13:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=820)) **Diagnosing resistance through head, heart and hands** ([18:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1137) [18:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1137) [19:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1168) [19:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1195) [20:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1206) [20:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1226)) 1. Treat what looks like resistance as an opportunity and turn the mirror back on yourself as the change leader. 2. If people don't get the reason for the change (head), explain the change better and tell the story. 3. If people don't want it (heart), communicate, engage, listen and build trust. 4. If people can't do it (hands), add process, tools, training and help, and remove organizational barriers. **Lessons** - Trautline advises leaders to know their dominant change style, because recognising it reveals the other options available to them. ([09:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=546) [09:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=577)) - She suggests that, when facing resistance, leaders change themselves, the one thing they can control, rather than push harder. ([18:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1137) [19:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1168) [20:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1246)) - She advises executives to adapt their communication rather than rely on one-size-fits-all roadshows. The host adds that listening to resisters first often reveals the real issue. ([21:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1263) [22:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1358)) - Trautline urges change agents not to neglect implementation, evaluation and sustainment, which she says prevent backsliding. ([38:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=2309) [39:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=2358)) - She argues change agents should draw on allied disciplines such as coaching, team building, organizational development and project management. ([35:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=2136) [37:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=2240)) **Who it's for:** Change management practitioners, organizational development and L&D professionals, and leaders running transformations who want a simple style model for leading change and handling resistance. Women working in male-dominated industries such as steel and mining may also find parts of the conversation relevant. **Facts stated in the episode** - Trautline cites research by John Carter and colleagues at Harvard in the mid-eighties finding seventy percent of major organizational changes fail. ([06:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=367)) - Trautline's CQ certification program launched in 2014. ([16:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1000)) - Her database shows about 42% of change leaders lead from the heart, 40% from the head and 18% from the hands. ([38:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=2324)) - University Hospitals trained about thirteen hundred people leaders in Change Intelligence. ([33:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1995)) - Trautline worked about five years on a US–Japanese joint venture steel mill startup. ([30:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1827)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: What is Change Intelligence or CQ?** A: Trautline defines it as awareness of your own style of leading change, plus the ability to adapt that style to be effective across people and situations. She says it is a learnable skill, like EQ. ([08:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=524) [09:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=546)) **Q: What are the head, heart and hands change leadership styles?** A: Heart leaders focus on people: they engage, collaborate and communicate. Head leaders focus on the goal and strategy and want to move quickly. Hands leaders plan and focus on execution. Each style can be overdone. ([10:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=617) [10:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=649) [11:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=679) [11:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=712)) **Q: How should I handle employees who resist change?** A: Trautline says to treat resistance as information. If people don't get the change, explain it better. If they don't want it, engage and build trust. If they can't do it, provide tools, training and process. The host recommends first sitting down and listening. ([18:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1137) [19:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1195) [20:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1206) [20:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1226) [21:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1263)) **Q: Why do so many organizational changes fail?** A: She cites research putting the failure rate of major change at about seventy percent. She argues the gap is in leading change, and that the neglected hands style, meaning implementation and sustainment, is a critical reason. ([06:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=367) [06:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=412) [39:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=2358)) **Q: Does CQ replace change management methodologies?** A: No. Trautline says CQ 'plays well with others' and complements existing methods. She calls stakeholder analyses and communication plans baseline competencies that get you in the door. ([13:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=790) [13:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=820)) **Q: How do executives and frontline staff differ in how they lead change?** A: According to her global database, executives tend to lead from the head and front lines lead from the heart. As a result, executives can unintentionally create resistance by communicating in the way that works for them. ([21:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1307) [22:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1334) [22:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1358)) **Q: Has CQ been used in healthcare, and with what results?** A: University Hospitals in Ohio trained about thirteen hundred leaders, from the C-suite to frontline nursing staff. They report bottom-line impacts on patient satisfaction. ([32:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1926) [32:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1974) [33:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1995) [33:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=2007)) **Q: Where is the change management profession heading?** A: Trautline sees three trends: professionalisation through bodies such as ACMP, more focus on change leadership, and more interdisciplinary practice. ([35:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=2136) [35:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=2141) [36:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=2214) [37:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=2240)) ### Passage: First job: a steel mill in bankruptcy [02:43–04:33, 328 words] Note (AI): The guest's origin story: how a PhD student ended up leading change in a bankrupt steel mill, and the hostility she faced as a young woman. Barbra Trautline, guest [02:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=163): > Actually, I am, like you, I had not intended to have quote-unquote change management as my career. I started off in a, by obtaining my PhD in organizational psychology, and when I was in my graduate program, I got a part-time job at a consulting firm. And in the consulting firm, we were actually, my first project was working with a steel mill in bankruptcy. And it was back in the mid-eighties, and, at that time in the United States, we were undergoing a recession, a lot of automotive plants were shut down or in danger of shutting down, and therefore their suppliers, like steel companies, were really hit hard. So as I mentioned, I was working as part of a consulting team in the steel mill in bankruptcy, and of course our job was to attempt to help them emerge from bankruptcy, return to solvency. So of course that's a huge change. So, so from my very early career, that's what I had been doing, is helping leaders, teams, and organizations manage big change projects. And I remember distinctly my first day on the job, standing up, introducing myself to a room full of about thirty or forty steel workers, and I get up as a twenty-five-year-old woman. And I, introduce myself and I talk about all the changes that we were going to implement, high-performance teams, total quality management, Lean Six Sigma, and a gentleman gets up, a steel worker, he's a huge guy, six foot five inch, 250 pounds, he comes right to the middle of the room, right in front of me, and says, we're steel workers and we don't listen to girls. So right from the start of my career, I was both helping companies manage change in order to be competitive and survive and thrive, and also to some degree, I guess I was a big change just for the, for the folks that I was working with, a woman in steel. ### Passage: Why Change Intelligence was needed [04:52–06:58, 336 words] Note (AI): Explains the reasoning behind CQ: the persistent seventy percent failure rate and the gap between change management tools and leadership development. Barbra Trautline, guest [04:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=292): > So from there ensued twenty years of helping companies in steel and other industries manage change. So in the beginning, again, it was a difficult economy, so a lot of our changes were, turnarounds, helping companies change to survive. Then I started doing more in terms of helping new startup facilities build. I've done a lot with IT implementations, mergers and acquisitions, so a lot with, again, helping companies deal with and be successful through major transformations. In almost all of those projects, there has been a component of leadership development, so developing leaders with new skills in order to lead in these changing times. About seven years ago now, I put those two ideas together, managing change and leadership development, and came up with the idea that what we really need to focus on more and more is leading change. Because from the time I started in business in the mid-eighties, we've known that the failure rate of major organizational changes like turnarounds, like startups, like mergers and acquisitions, like new technology implementations, has been around seventy percent. John Carter and his colleagues at Harvard did research in the mid-eighties, came out with that statistic, seventy percent of major organizational changes fail, and we all know the carnage that results from that. And then right around the time I came up with the concept of Change Intelligence, McKinsey and Consulting, the global consulting firm, did a similar study and came out with a similar statistic. So that meant that in a span of about twenty years, we hadn't moved a needle on our ability to design and implement changes that stick. So I was looking at what's the gap. And again, that's what I came up with, that we have lots of tools and methods for managing change, for change management. We have lots of tools and methods for developing various kinds of leadership capabilities. What was missing is our ability to really lead change, and that's what CQ, or Change Intelligence, is all about. ### Passage: The heart, head and hands change leader styles [10:17–12:29, 423 words] Note (AI): The core of the CQ model: each style's strengths and the ways each can be overdone or can drop something out. Barbra Trautline, guest [10:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=617): > So the next question people tend to ask me is just what you did. If Change Intelligence is, you know, the awareness of your style of leading change, what are those styles? And so what I've distinguished in almost thirty years now working with leaders at all levels, and by the way, I consider us all leaders, regardless of if we're the CEO, if we have manager in our title, if we're an individual contributor, I believe we're all leaders of change. So that's how I use that expression. So anyway, so the different change leader styles are people tend to lead from the heart. That's, and people who lead from the heart, they focus on the people that are involved in change. So they, they engage, they collaborate, they communicate. And this is a strength-based model, so that's a strength. However, sometimes a strength can be overdone. So for example, high heart leaders, sometimes they can be on the side of the bell curve that wants ninety, ninety-five percent of the people on board before they move forward, and sometimes the business case, the sense of urgency, might necessitate us to move faster. The second style of leading change leads from the head, and that's the style that always wants to move very quickly because what they're focused on is the purpose, is the change goal. They, they understand the business objectives and they want to move very quickly, rapidly to, to get there. They're, so therefore they're visionary, they're strategic, they focus on the big picture, they're systems thinkers. That's all great, that's a strength, but sometimes what can they drop out? Well, sometimes what they drop out is giving people the plan to get from current state to future state. And that's the third style of leading change, leading from the hands. Those are the folks who love to plan the change, they're very process-oriented, detail-oriented, and they like to focus on how to make this happen, how to get it done. What can they drop out? Sometimes they can focus on change by checklist and be more efficient than effective, and they can get frustrated with the people that they're partnering with in change. So those are the three main styles leading from the hard hat hands. And the other reason I Like this analogy is because just like we each have a heart and a head, and most of us have two hands, we have all those styles in our tool bag. We can do any of them. ### Passage: Reframing resistance with head, heart, hands [18:57–21:01, 394 words] Note (AI): A worked diagnostic: resistance read as not getting it, not wanting it, or not being able to do it, each with a matching response. Barbra Trautline, guest [18:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1137): > Well, that's actually one of the bottom lines of Change Intelligence, that I say what looks like resistance in other people is an opportunity for us as change leaders. So often I think that change leaders, people who lead change, they start off with the best intentions. They want to do the right thing for other people and their organization. However, at some point, it often starts feeling like they're pushing the string, right? They're pushing the string and they're getting what looks like and feels like resistance from other people, right? And so, and what I say is that what can we control, and this is a Viktor Frankl message from Man's Search for Meaning, we can only control ourselves, our mindsets and our behaviors. So I say that when we, you know, when we feel like we're starting to transition from doing something with and for others, and we start feeling like we're doing something against or to or even in spite of other people, turn the mirror back on ourselves, right? And see what we can do differently as change leaders, because so often what is resistance? Either people don't get Get it, right? They don't get the reason for the change, which is the head. So therefore, as change leaders, what can we do? We can explain the change better, right? We can tell the story. Second, people don't want it. They don't want it. They have an emotional level resistance to it. So therefore, what can a change leader do? Leverage the heart, communicate, engage, listen, build trust. Or three, they might get it intellectually, they might want it emotionally, but sometimes people just can't do it behaviorally. They can't do it. They haven't had the training, they don't have the tools, or there's barriers standing in the way in the organization of good people behaving consistently with the change. So therefore, what can we do? We can add hands. We can add the hands, the process, the tools, the, and the help that people need. So that's what I say that what looks like resistance in other people, as leaders, we can reframe that From enemy to ally. We can reframe what looks like resistance to a powerful source of information that we can use to, to change the only thing that we really can, which is ourself. ### Passage: University Hospitals case study [32:06–34:19, 354 words] Note (AI): A client rollout of CQ across a healthcare system, with training numbers and reported effects on patient satisfaction. Barbra Trautline, guest [32:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1926): > So the other project I would share is actually in the healthcare industry. So something very different. And as I mentioned, I have a certification program, and so organizations will bring me in to certify their internal people, so they can then leverage Change Intelligence throughout their organization. So this particular client Is a, a healthcare system that operates across the state of Ohio. And for those of you who may not know what's going on in healthcare in the United States, there's all kinds of legislative changes, and that's causing smaller community hospitals to merge together. It's causing a lot of new technologies to be implemented in hospitals. It's causing very different relationships between patients and providers and insurance plans. So it's just an industry that is going, undergoing massive change. So this particular client, University Hospitals, they brought me in to train all of their learning and development people in Change Intelligence, and then internally, they trained almost all their leaders, people leaders, so from the C-suite to frontline nursing staff in Change Intelligence. They trained about thirteen hundred. They have a few hundred more to go in these concepts. And what's really exciting to me is because of the results that they're achieving. And so, for example, they are reporting that building their Change Intelligence, their ability to lead change, has had bottom line impacts, for example, on patient satisfaction. Now, I think that is truly fascinating because again, how do you get from here to there? How does leading change help you satisfy patients? And we're exploring that more, but one thought I have on the subject is that people are just bombarded with so much change. If you're a nursing supervisor on the floor, you have to, again, integrate new processes because your hospital just got acquired. There's new technologies to be compliant with new government regulations. There's so much distractions that are keep away from patients and their families. If you can build your capacity to smooth out these changes, then that just gives you so much more bandwidth to be able to really do your core job. ### Passage: Where the change profession is heading [35:36–38:16, 431 words] Note (AI): Three trends the guest sees: professionalisation, a shift toward change leadership, and interdisciplinary practice. Barbra Trautline, guest [35:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=2136): > I think I see two things. One of them is that, actually three things. So one of them is that change management, as we know, really hasn't been considered or wasn't kind of recognized or distinguished as a profession until maybe a decade ago. And so one thing that's definitely happening is, you know, I'm a member, for example, of the Association of Change Management Professionals, and the mission of that association is to create the discipline or, or support further the discipline of change management. So defining a, a standard for change management, defining, a certification process for change management, a code of ethics for, ethics for change management. So I think that's one change that's occurring is just like the Project Management Institute did for project managers or the International Coach Federation did for coaching. You know, we're looking at emerging as a recognizable Discipline that we can actually talk about, explain. So that's, that's one that I see. The second thing that I see is that we're definitely augmenting, we're learning that we still have a very high failure rate of change. And so we're recognizing that, as I mentioned before, change management skills and tools and toolkits are baseline. We need those in our profession. We need to know them, we need to use them. However, we need much more of a focus on change leadership, on the leadership skills, competencies, capacities, that self-awareness, that building our capabilities around leading change is so mission critical. So that's two. And I think the third one is just the interdisciplinary nature of what we do. I think that, and maybe this is something I want to see versus that I'm actually seeing, I think that I know that we as change management professionals, change agents, we need to bring so many disciplines to bear. As you mentioned, People bring their emotions to work, and I think we need to understand coaching tools and strategies. so often what we do is we work in teams. I think we need team building, capabilities. A lot of what we do affects the structure and process of organizations. I think we need to know a lot about the organizational development world. We need to manage projects, and we need to understand about project management. So I think that, again, whether it's something that I see evolving or something that we as change agents need to be constantly aware of is continuing to develop ourselves as change agents and also remembering that we can leverage insights from allied disciplines to get the job done. ### Passage: The undervalued hands style [38:29–39:56, 253 words] Note (AI): Database percentages for each style and the guest's argument that neglecting execution is a critical reason change fails. Barbra Trautline, guest [38:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=2309): > I can just share one other insight from my Change Intelligence database that might be of interest to your listeners, and that is that when I talk about the differences by level, but when I look at the prevalence of the change leader styles overall, About forty-two percent of change leaders lead from the heart, and about forty percent lead from the head. Only about eighteen percent of change leaders lead primarily from the hand. And I think that has some serious implications. We know that strategy is sexy, right? So we focus on the head. There's so much research about the bottom line benefits and importance of employee engagement. So I think we know that we need to focus on the head, we know we need to focus on the heart. What gets dropped out and I think is undervalued is the hands. And I think that's one of the critical reasons we have so much failed change is because we don't take the time to implement and evaluate and sustain the change. We don't install wedges to prevent backsliding. And we really don't look at all the different tentacles of what's going on in an organization, what are all the barriers, systemic barriers in the way of really having the change stick. So I would just leave your listeners with that. And, and to think about, am I really as a change agent doing what I need to do to really effectively implement the change and really effectively enable its execution? ### Quotes > "we're steel workers and we don't listen to girls." > — Barbra Trautline, guest · [04:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=255) > "seventy percent of major organizational changes fail, and we all know the carnage that results from that." > — Barbra Trautline, guest · [06:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=373) > "It's how not intellectually smart you are, but how people smart you are." > — Barbra Trautline, guest · [08:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=506) > "If we're not aware of our style, then we're not aware that we have other options, we have other tools in our tool bag," > — Barbra Trautline, guest · [09:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=577) > "I always say that CQ plays well with others." > — Barbra Trautline, guest · [13:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=790) > "what looks like resistance in other people is an opportunity for us as change leaders." > — Barbra Trautline, guest · [19:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1140) > "we can reframe that From enemy to ally." > — Barbra Trautline, guest · [20:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1246) > "Really change is one person changing their behavior at a time, right?" > — Barbra Trautline, guest · [22:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1346) > "change is threatening when done to us, it's exhilarating when done by us." > — Barbra Trautline, guest · [23:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1384) > "remembering to take a breath, put my own oxygen mask on first, right?" > — Barbra Trautline, guest · [24:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1489) > "you teach what you need to learn, right? Which is hilarious. And that also that every master was once a disaster." > — Barbra Trautline, guest · [25:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1550) > "We know that strategy is sexy, right? So we focus on the head." > — Barbra Trautline, guest · [38:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=2339) ### Claims > "I started off in a, by obtaining my PhD in organizational psychology, and when I was in my graduate program, I got a part-time job at a consulting firm." > — Barbra Trautline, guest · topic: Career origins · [02:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=169) > "my first project was working with a steel mill in bankruptcy. And it was back in the mid-eighties, and, at that time in the United States, we were undergoing a recession, a lot of automotive plants were shut down or in danger of shutting down, and therefore their suppliers, like steel companies, were really hit hard." > — Barbra Trautline, guest · topic: Career origins · [03:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=183) > "a gentleman gets up, a steel worker, he's a huge guy, six foot five inch, 250 pounds, he comes right to the middle of the room, right in front of me, and says, we're steel workers and we don't listen to girls." > — Barbra Trautline, guest · topic: Women in male-dominated industries · [04:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=247) > "So from there ensued twenty years of helping companies in steel and other industries manage change. So in the beginning, again, it was a difficult economy, so a lot of our changes were, turnarounds, helping companies change to survive." > — Barbra Trautline, guest · topic: Career origins · [04:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=292) > "I've done a lot with IT implementations, mergers and acquisitions, so a lot with, again, helping companies deal with and be successful through major transformations." > — Barbra Trautline, guest · topic: Career origins · [05:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=313) > "John Carter and his colleagues at Harvard did research in the mid-eighties, came out with that statistic, seventy percent of major organizational changes fail, and we all know the carnage that results from that." > — Barbra Trautline, guest · topic: Change failure rates · [06:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=367) > "So that meant that in a span of about twenty years, we hadn't moved a needle on our ability to design and implement changes that stick." > — Barbra Trautline, guest · topic: Change failure rates · [06:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=390) > "What was missing is our ability to really lead change, and that's what CQ, or Change Intelligence, is all about." > — Barbra Trautline, guest · topic: Change Intelligence (CQ) · [06:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=412) > "However, once you're in an organization, what separates average performers from superior performers, and this is across job titles, industries, levels, is not your IQ, it's your EQ." > — Barbra Trautline, guest · topic: Change Intelligence (CQ) · [08:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=492) > "And just like EQ, CQ is a skill that we can learn and a capability that we, we can develop." > — Barbra Trautline, guest · topic: Change Intelligence (CQ) · [08:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=524) > "is Change Intelligence, or CQ, and I use those terms interchangeably, is the awareness of our style of leading change, and second, our ability to adapt our style to be optimally effective across people and situations." > — Barbra Trautline, guest · topic: Change Intelligence (CQ) · [09:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=546) > "I consider us all leaders, regardless of if we're the CEO, if we have manager in our title, if we're an individual contributor, I believe we're all leaders of change." > — Barbra Trautline, guest · topic: Change leadership vs management · [10:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=631) > "and people who lead from the heart, they focus on the people that are involved in change. So they, they engage, they collaborate, they communicate. And this is a strength-based model, so that's a strength. However, sometimes a strength can be overdone." > — Barbra Trautline, guest · topic: Head, heart, hands styles · [10:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=649) > "high heart leaders, sometimes they can be on the side of the bell curve that wants ninety, ninety-five percent of the people on board before they move forward, and sometimes the business case, the sense of urgency, might necessitate us to move faster." > — Barbra Trautline, guest · topic: Head, heart, hands styles · [11:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=663) > "The second style of leading change leads from the head, and that's the style that always wants to move very quickly because what they're focused on is the purpose, is the change goal." > — Barbra Trautline, guest · topic: Head, heart, hands styles · [11:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=679) > "leading from the hands. Those are the folks who love to plan the change, they're very process-oriented, detail-oriented, and they like to focus on how to make this happen, how to get it done." > — Barbra Trautline, guest · topic: Head, heart, hands styles · [11:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=712) > "Sometimes they can focus on change by checklist and be more efficient than effective, and they can get frustrated with the people that they're partnering with in change." > — Barbra Trautline, guest · topic: Head, heart, hands styles · [12:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=725) > "I always say that CQ plays well with others. So CQ, change intelligence, is a complement to our other change management model methods." > — Barbra Trautline, guest · topic: Change leadership vs management · [13:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=790) > "So a lot of it is, you know, again, spreadsheets, tools, toolkits, which I get are extremely important. We need them, and yet I believe their baseline competency, their baseline. They get us in the door." > — Barbra Trautline, guest · topic: Change leadership vs management · [13:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=820) > "So my biggest one was about a decade ago, and it was when both my parents started, becoming ill. And, you know, they started aging. And it was the first time in my life that I really couldn't control something." > — Barbra Trautline, guest · topic: Personal change · [15:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=941) > "So I did. I spent a year creating the certification program, which launched in 2014." > — Barbra Trautline, guest · topic: Change Intelligence (CQ) · [16:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1000) > "one of the women came back the second day and she was in tears. And she said that overnight she had a breakthrough with her mother, that in the first day of the program, she got some insights about their relationship, and they hadn't spoken in about three years," > — Barbra Trautline, guest · topic: Personal change · [16:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1013) > "I think people forget when they're doing a big change program that it's the full person that arrives at work. You don't leave your personal self behind at home." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Personal change · [17:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1078) > "that's actually one of the bottom lines of Change Intelligence, that I say what looks like resistance in other people is an opportunity for us as change leaders." > — Barbra Trautline, guest · topic: Resistance to change · [18:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1137) > "and this is a Viktor Frankl message from Man's Search for Meaning, we can only control ourselves, our mindsets and our behaviors." > — Barbra Trautline, guest · topic: Resistance to change · [19:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1168) > "Either people don't get Get it, right? They don't get the reason for the change, which is the head. So therefore, as change leaders, what can we do? We can explain the change better, right? We can tell the story." > — Barbra Trautline, guest · topic: Resistance to change · [19:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1195) > "Second, people don't want it. They don't want it. They have an emotional level resistance to it. So therefore, what can a change leader do? Leverage the heart, communicate, engage, listen, build trust." > — Barbra Trautline, guest · topic: Resistance to change · [20:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1206) > "They haven't had the training, they don't have the tools, or there's barriers standing in the way in the organization of good people behaving consistently with the change. So therefore, what can we do? We can add hands." > — Barbra Trautline, guest · topic: Resistance to change · [20:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1226) > "the best tactic, to apply to anybody who's resisting change is just first to sit down and listen to that person. And why are they resisting it?" > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Resistance to change · [21:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1263) > "one thing that's very consistent across Industries and around the world is that folks at the executive level, at the top of organizations, as is not surprising probably, they tend to lead more from the head, focusing on the vision and the strategy, right?" > — Barbra Trautline, guest · topic: Head, heart, hands styles · [21:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1307) > "What's also consistent in the database is that at the front lines, how people lead change is from the heart. A lot of people think the hands because it's executional, but no, it's from the heart." > — Barbra Trautline, guest · topic: Head, heart, hands styles · [22:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1334) > "unintentionally senior leaders, executives will often create resistance in others because they're not, they're, they're communicating the way that works for them, not in a way that works for other people." > — Barbra Trautline, guest · topic: Resistance to change · [22:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1358) > "I find myself using it more and more when I interact with their physicians and the different people that are involved in their care in terms of attempting to understand where they're coming from in a very complex, sometimes seemingly cold, healthcare environment, right?" > — Barbra Trautline, guest · topic: Personal change · [24:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1453) > "I definitely still see examples where a woman can say the same thing as a man, and the woman's, you know, input will be dismissed, and people all of a sudden will think the man is a genius, right?" > — Barbra Trautline, guest · topic: Women in male-dominated industries · [26:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1603) > "when there are a higher percentage of women in the C-suite at the board level, there's better organizational outcomes overall in terms of profitability, revenue, customer satisfaction, employee retention, a lot of different metrics." > — Barbra Trautline, guest · topic: Women in male-dominated industries · [27:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1621) > "one of the things we know that really helps retain and promote women is how family-friendly workplace practices are. And I think that a lot of the, what I see in terms of the men of the younger generation is they want the same degree of work-life balance, right, that younger women do." > — Barbra Trautline, guest · topic: Women in male-dominated industries · [27:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1674) > "I'm on the Committee for Women in Mining South Africa, and, we provide a networking platform for professional women in this very male-dominated industry." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Women in male-dominated industries · [29:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1747) > "I showed up for the steel mill in a skirt and heels. What a dope, right? But I didn't know, right?" > — Barbra Trautline, guest · topic: Women in male-dominated industries · [29:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1778) > "It was a joint venture between a US steel firm and a Japanese steel firm, and I worked with them for about five years on the people side of the startup." > — Barbra Trautline, guest · topic: Client case studies · [30:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1827) > "we want to transmit this culture that we created, which was a pretty unique culture in the steel mill, self-managed teams, right, real partnership up and down the organization. we want to transfer that to the new generation." > — Barbra Trautline, guest · topic: Client case studies · [31:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1877) > "So this particular client, University Hospitals, they brought me in to train all of their learning and development people in Change Intelligence, and then internally, they trained almost all their leaders, people leaders, so from the C-suite to frontline nursing staff in Change Intelligence." > — Barbra Trautline, guest · topic: Client case studies · [32:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1974) > "They trained about thirteen hundred. They have a few hundred more to go in these concepts. And what's really exciting to me is because of the results that they're achieving." > — Barbra Trautline, guest · topic: Client case studies · [33:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1995) > "they are reporting that building their Change Intelligence, their ability to lead change, has had bottom line impacts, for example, on patient satisfaction." > — Barbra Trautline, guest · topic: Client case studies · [33:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=2007) > "If you can build your capacity to smooth out these changes, then that just gives you so much more bandwidth to be able to really do your core job." > — Barbra Trautline, guest · topic: Client case studies · [34:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=2049) > "change management, as we know, really hasn't been considered or wasn't kind of recognized or distinguished as a profession until maybe a decade ago." > — Barbra Trautline, guest · topic: Future of change profession · [35:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=2141) > "we need much more of a focus on change leadership, on the leadership skills, competencies, capacities, that self-awareness, that building our capabilities around leading change is so mission critical." > — Barbra Trautline, guest · topic: Future of change profession · [36:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=2214) > "we as change management professionals, change agents, we need to bring so many disciplines to bear." > — Barbra Trautline, guest · topic: Future of change profession · [37:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=2240) > "About forty-two percent of change leaders lead from the heart, and about forty percent lead from the head. Only about eighteen percent of change leaders lead primarily from the hand." > — Barbra Trautline, guest · topic: Head, heart, hands styles · [38:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=2324) > "I think that's one of the critical reasons we have so much failed change is because we don't take the time to implement and evaluate and sustain the change. We don't install wedges to prevent backsliding." > — Barbra Trautline, guest · topic: Change failure rates · [39:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=2358) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Petro du Pisani talks to Dr. Barbra Trautline from 'Change Catalysts' about Change Intelligence (CQ). Connect with Petro · Solid Gold Podcasts ## #001 Tom Marsicano | Change in a production environment - Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/001-change-in-a-production-environment/ - Date: 2017-11-18 (as at 2017-11-18) - Guest: Tom Marsicano - Host: Petro du Pisani - Themes: Defining change management, Change in production environments, Culture and change, Resistance to change, Supervisors as change leaders, Training shift workers, Technology to embed change, Change and project management - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/991996 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Tom Marsicano - co-founder and director · AndChange - Started off in business and in IT as an IT professional before moving into change management; started out with change management in the financial and IT sectors; co-founder and director of AndChange. - Links: AndChange.com In their own words: > "No, I didn't start off in change management. I started off in business in general. In fact, I started off in IT, as an IT, professional." [04:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=264) > "I chose change management because of, a conviction that I could make a difference by applying all that I've learned in my life to helping others cope with many difficulties they have to deal with." [04:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=274) > "AndChange is a globally inspired group where an experienced and creative team apply and integrate a unique mix of knowledge and methods and research in this, field with a personal flair and curiosity." [05:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=314) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Host Petro du Pisani interviews Tom Marsicano, co-founder and director of AndChange, about applying change management in production settings such as mining. Tom, who started in IT and the financial sector, defines change management as leading people to change what they think, feel and do so organisations achieve strategy. He compares call centres with mines, discusses layered cultures, the tension between production targets and change, change saturation, the role of supervisors, bite-sized training for shift workers, tactics for resistance, and using everyday technology. He closes by arguing change management must become a strategic capability beyond project management. A clip from Tim Creasey of Prosci opens the discussion. **Key ideas** - Tom defines change management as the practice that leads people to truly change what they think, feel and do, so organisations achieve strategy; managing the right change matters as much as managing it well. ([03:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=234) [04:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=248)) - Tom argues service and production industries share efficiency drivers, so resistance looks similar and a good change manager can move between industries. ([05:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=342) [06:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=416) [07:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=470) [07:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=479)) - Tom sees multiple cultures operating at once — leader, organisation and society — so each location needs a different deployment. ([08:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=505) [08:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=531) [09:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=579)) - Tom says the main production challenge is balancing production against change disruption; management focus is the scarcest resource and overload leads to change saturation. ([10:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=652) [10:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=656) [11:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=690) [11:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=690) [12:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=743)) - Tom calls supervisors 'glueware' who carry people to adoption, and insists change managers should not substitute for them. ([15:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=941) [15:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=943) [16:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=973) [16:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=993)) - Tom's resistance tactics are removing barriers, explaining consequences of not changing, and listening, which he calls the most powerful. ([18:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1120) [18:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1129) [19:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1171) [20:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1210) [20:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1240)) - Tom and the host argue familiar technology such as phone apps can embed change and track people's change journey in real time. ([21:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1275) [21:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1286) [22:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1320) [23:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1384) [23:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1432)) - Tom sees a worldwide shortage of change managers and wants change management built as a strategic capability beyond project management. ([00:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=0) [24:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1475) [24:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1499) [25:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1517)) **Tactics for managing resistance in production environments** ([18:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1120) [18:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1129) [19:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1171) [20:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1210)) 1. Remove barriers to changing, such as lack of time or measures that reward the old behaviour, working with management. 2. Explain the consequences of not changing for the individual, their team and colleagues. 3. Listen to objections and concerns, and use them to tweak the solution and show you care. **Lessons** - Tom advises including supervisors and middle managers in change teams because people work for their leaders. ([16:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=973) [16:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=993)) - Tom suggests breaking training into small bites delivered on or near the job, as with 15-20 minute sessions in shacks on miners' walkways. ([17:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1045) [17:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1070)) - Tom warns that forcing change produces compliance rather than real adoption. ([19:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1196) [19:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1196)) - Tom cautions that pushing change onto already stretched teams risks change saturation where the change does not take hold. ([10:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=652) [12:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=743)) - Tom notes that personal changes are the tough ones, and that knowing change management does not make change easier. ([14:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=866) [14:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=879) [14:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=882)) **Who it's for:** Change managers, operations leaders and project managers in mining, oil and gas, manufacturing or other production settings, and practitioners moving between service and production industries who want practical tactics for resistance, training and supervisor involvement. **Facts stated in the episode** - Tom says saving ten seconds per call in call centres handling tens of thousands of calls daily is a big efficiency improvement. ([06:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=416)) - Tom cites a deployment in Mexico that differed greatly from colleagues about a thousand kilometres away in the USA. ([09:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=579)) - At an opencast mine, Tom's team had about 15 to 20 minutes with miners between shifts for training. ([17:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1070)) - Tom completed a safety app and short training before visiting his client Sasol. ([22:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1320)) - Tom recommends the book 'C.E.O. Gandhi' on servant leadership. ([13:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=780)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: What is change management, really?** A: Tom Marsicano defines it as the practice that leads people to truly change what they think, feel and do, in an organisational context so organisations achieve their strategies. It is about managing the right change, not only managing change well. ([03:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=234) [04:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=248)) **Q: Is change management in mining different from change management in banking?** A: Tom argues the drivers look different but both focus on efficiency, quality and consistency, so resistance is similar. The principles are the same; only the technical language differs. ([05:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=342) [06:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=377) [06:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=416) [07:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=470)) **Q: What is the biggest challenge when implementing change in a production environment?** A: Tom says managers struggle to balance production targets against the disruption of change. Management focus is the scarcest resource, so the easier option can seem to be deferring change. ([10:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=652) [10:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=656) [11:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=690)) **Q: What is change saturation?** A: Tom describes it as what happens when people are already pushed to the limit and the next change causes things to go negative, people to resist, and the change fails to take hold. ([12:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=743)) **Q: How do you train shift workers who can't leave their shifts?** A: Tom recommends short, bite-sized training on or near the job. At an opencast mine his team set up shacks on the miners' walkways and had 15-20 minutes with them between shifts. ([17:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1045) [17:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1070)) **Q: How should you deal with resistance to change?** A: Tom recommends removing barriers such as time pressure or misaligned measures, explaining the consequences of not changing, and above all listening to concerns. He warns that forcing change only produces compliance. ([18:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1120) [18:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1129) [19:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1171) [19:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1196) [20:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1210)) **Q: Why do supervisors matter so much in change?** A: Tom calls them 'glueware': they translate the change, show support and coach people from ignorance and fear to full adoption. People work for their leaders, so change managers should not substitute for them. ([15:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=943) [16:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=973) [16:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=993)) **Q: Can technology help make organisational change stick?** A: Tom says it must be used. He cites a railway operator using phone messaging to track rolling stock and a Sasol safety app that recorded his completed training. The host suggests an app to track people's change journey. ([21:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1275) [21:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1286) [22:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1320) [23:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1384)) **Q: Is the slow uptake of change management just a South African problem?** A: Tom sees it as a worldwide problem, with a shortage of change managers everywhere. He wants change management integrated into mature project management but also built as a strategic capability beyond it. ([24:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1475) [24:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1499) [25:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1517)) ### Passage: The Easter Bunny paradox of change management definitions [01:08–03:24, 433 words] Note (AI): A memorable illustration of why the term change management means different things to different people, setting up the need for a clear definition. Tim Creasey, intro voice or played clip [01:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=68): > And so I'm going to tell you a story about the Easter Bunny. It's what I call the Easter Bunny paradox, and your religious affiliation matters not to me for two reasons. One, you know of the Easter Bunny, right? And two, you know it's not real, right? Okay. So bear with me, and I'm going to connect it back to value management. It's about eight years ago, my wife and I are sitting on the couch, it's around Easter, and I look at her, and I say, when you were a kid, And you envisioned the real Easter bunny, the real one. How big was it? Think about that. And she goes, well, it was about six feet tall. And I start scoffingly laughing at her, right? This is my partner in life, and she is so wrong about how big the Easter bunny was, because we all know, well, I know the Easter bunny is about the size of a golden retriever on its hind legs, about four feet tall. And so being a researcher, I started emailing everybody in my contact list, and luckily none of you were in the contact list at the time. But I started asking them, how big was your Easter bunny? And some people came back, like some people, you know, six foot, like was her answer, that was kind of the most normal. Some people came back like ten foot tall, like nightmare inducing Sasquatch bunny, right? Some people said it, said it was like this big, like the size of an actual bunny. and then a few people got the right answer, which is about four feet tall. Now, being the good researcher, the second email went back to him and said, well, did it walk or did it hop, and what color was it? And that's when people started replying, unsubscribe, unsubscribe, unsub, right? Stop asking me about the Easter bunny, but here's the interesting thing. None of us have ever seen the real Easter bunny. Cause it's not real. But we all had something pop into our head when we thought about what the real, how big the real Easter Bunny was. So I tell the story in the Change Management space because when you go out and say Change Management, you have no idea what's going to pop in that person's head. They might think communication and training, they might think, oh, you must mean managing hardware, software version control. Oh, what do we do for our project when scope changes? You have no idea what pops into their head. ### Passage: Comparing change in banking call centres and mining [05:42–08:08, 400 words] Note (AI): Tom argues that efficiency drivers and resistance look alike across service and production industries, so change skills transfer between sectors. Petro du Pisani, host [05:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=342): > Hey, so Tom, I know that you started out with change management in the financial and IT sectors. Today, I would like to explore how to use change management in a production environment, which is where I'm from. How would the change management approach differ between the financial IT sectors and a more production-based environment like mining, oil, gas, or manufacturing? Tom Marsicano, guest [06:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=363): > Yeah, if you think of the industries, you know, each industry has its own drivers, some, the same as others, but, what, what we've seen is that, what is driving organizations and their development changes over time. I understand that, in mining, there is always the underlying drivers of, safety and tons. get those two right within a constraints of cost and market, forces, and we're halfway there. In a service industry, like banks, for example, it's about providing a total experience for the customer that builds loyalty and share of wallet. That sounds very different, but go under the covers and look at the way a bank runs its call center operation, for example, and possibly how a mine runs its ore extraction processes, and you may find very similar drivers there. Both are driven to increase efficiency, quality, and consistency. So, for example, in the call center, everything is measured down to the second, because those seconds are a wasting asset, and saving ten seconds per phone call while keeping the quality of service high in an environment where there are tens of thousands of phone calls being handled every day equates to quite a big efficiency improvement. I'm no mining expert, but when I recently observed a huge open cast mine operating, I could see the same focus on getting, the flow of the ore right in each step of the process. So introducing changes in both environments is likely to, receive similar kinds of responses. The threat of change to disrupt their efficiencies will be met with resistance, so we shouldn't be surprised by that. It's surprising, though, to see how similar the resistance is, even if the way it's expressed and the technical terms are different. It's always about building the same five key elements with people to get them to change. So the good news is that a good change manager in one industry can actually do quite well in another because the principles are the same, just the techno talk is different. ### Passage: Multiple cultures shaping how change lands [08:25–10:34, 364 words] Note (AI): Covers layered leader, organisational and societal cultures, with Mexico/USA and Brazil/Australia examples of adapting a change approach. Tom Marsicano, guest [08:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=505): > Yeah. So, you know, when you look at these cultures from the outside, you see different appearances. People look different, and they seem to act differently. And the importance of culture in managing change has come to the fore in recent years. There's a growing realization that the prevailing culture in an affected area drives different approaches. I think the change management practice hasn't yet mastered, this, and is one of the big themes we talk about on our website. I say this because you're likely to find multiple cultures operating simultaneously in any area. There's the culture driven by the leader, but there is also the culture of the organization at large, and that this group is part of. And of course, there's always the underlying culture of the society that the organization is part of. I see this a lot when we work in multinationals, for example, especially those, that have been around a long time. What we see is, that the prevailing culture is not one of these, it's actually a mix of all. So each location is unique. So in one of our clients, the, the same business unit in the same insurance company, but in different locations, will have different cultures. In a change that involved changing the way people worked in this environment, that included office layout, pace of work, the collaboration techniques, and even the etiquette amongst the, amongst the workers, the deployment of this in Mexico, for example, was very different from the colleagues just a thousand kilometers away in the USA. You see the same in Europe, but also in Africa, and so we go. Have you not seen this in mining? Petro du Pisani, host [10:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=607): > Oh, definitely. I mean, I've worked across the globe as well, and the culture in Brazil is very, very different to, for instance, the culture in Canada or Australia. In Brazil, I see a very hierarchical structure. So you'll see if the manager says one thing, then everybody will follow. Whereas if you work in a, a country like Australia, it is much more collaborative, and everybody has to buy in. So it's quite a different way of having to apply change management. ### Passage: Production pressure versus change disruption and saturation [10:52–12:38, 315 words] Note (AI): Explains why managers defer change when production consumes their focus, and introduces change saturation. Tom Marsicano, guest [10:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=652): > Yeah, I think it would be difficult to single out one challenge throughout. But what I have seen is the difficulty management has in balancing the priority. Of production against the disruption of the change itself. They are squeezed on both ends, you know. On the one hand, they've got to achieve the production targets, but also lead your people through the change, because that's what the C-suite wants. This, these sort of challenges, cut across all levels of management, actually. So the resistance to change is significant. The change absorbs resources, of course. Doing change absorbs resources, there's no doubt about it, and, you know, it's more than money. The scarcest of all these resources, of course, is, management focus, and the change demands a lot of that. So in an environment where there is only just enough to keep the production going, When I find more to concentrate on the change becomes the kind of question that you would, you hear them ask themselves. Perhaps the easier option is to defer the change as long as possible or do as little as possible, and that's, that's the kind of challenge that we see in production environments. Petro du Pisani, host [12:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=720): > Yeah, I can see where you're coming from. I mean, if a manager is just barely trying to keep in mind making money, to bring any change into that environment, it just dilutes his focus. Not Tom Marsicano, guest [12:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=729): > dilutes the focus, yeah. And they, and if they're already, you know, if as a result of, previous efficiency drives, we're pushing everyone to the limit, then the next change is going to push us over the limit, and we start to experience something we call change saturation, which sort of happens when the next change that we try to effect in that environment just causes, things to go negative, people to resist, and the change actually doesn't take, take hold. ### Passage: Three tactics for managing resistance to change [18:40–20:47, 404 words] Note (AI): Tom lays out removing barriers, explaining consequences of not changing, and listening, with reasoning for each. Tom Marsicano, guest [18:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1120): > I think in the environment that we're talking about, these sort of heavy production environments, the most effective that I've seen, especially, you know, in these sort of situations, one of the big ones is removing the barriers. You know, people have barriers to changing. These can vary from time obstacles, you know, I just don't have the time to do this new stuff, or, maybe even changing the measures, the way in which we measure people, because, you know, if I'm measured this way, and then I'm going to behave, you know, to, to achieve those measures. So find out what these are and work very hard with management to get them out of the way would be the, the right thing to do there. I recently read an article about building, you know, those agile organizations, and there again, a suggestions that the tactics that we need to use is tactics that focus on getting these obstacles out the way so people can change. Another good one is explaining the consequences of not changing. It's the kind of so what, which is really important to, to a lot of people. But what will happen to me, you know, if I don't change? I need to know that. How will I affect my team if I don't change? How will my colleagues react to me if I don't support them? Getting this really clear helps me decide where I stand and what I still need to do to change. People ultimately choose to change. We can't really force them. You try to force somebody to change, the next thing we're going to get is compliance. You're not really going to get the quality. They may do something when we're watching, but that's not really what we want. Last, but I think probably the most powerful of all, is listening. It's strange, but I mean really listen to, to what people have got to say. It's amazing how often you, you find different teams performing their work in slightly different ways. So change looks different to different groups, to different people. And listening to their objections and their concerns about the change can help us tweak the solution to work better for them, but it also helps them work out their real concerns. Also, listening shows that you care, and often that is really what people are looking for during, times of, of change. ### Passage: Using everyday technology to make change stick [21:15–22:44, 287 words] Note (AI): Railway messaging and Sasol safety-app examples show how familiar tools can carry change without extra burden on people. Tom Marsicano, guest [21:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1275): > Oh, yes. you know, we must do this. I don't think it's an option. You know, people are whole beings. The more we can integrate, the better. So, you know, I'm thinking of a case where a railway operator was implementing a change in the way they tracked and controlled their rolling stock. They needed to find out, they needed to have, in fact, an effective way for their workers to communicate with each other about where this rolling stock was. So they integrated, using, messaging systems running on their cell phones to send messages to, to one another. You know, sending messages on cell phones, everybody does it. So, you know, easy to just have an app that does exactly the same thing, but you're just applying it in a, in a very specific way. The other day I had to visit, my client at Sasol. To facilitate my safety, I downloaded an app on my phone and underwent a short training session before arriving at the building. So I would be aware of what to do, you know, in the building and how to, how to, you know, be safe, if you like. The smart thing that was, that, that really impressed me about this was that, when I completed this, little app, if you like, on the system, the system knew I had done that. So when I arrived at the building, I didn't, they didn't waste any of my time in reminding me of that stuff. They knew I had already done that. You know, for me, that's kind of smart use of technology that got me to change, and I didn't even realize it. Found it quite, quite, interesting and quite pleasing. ### Quotes > "You know, change management goes well beyond project management. We have extremely important work to do in building change management as a strategic capability in organizations." > — Tom Marsicano, guest · [00:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=0) > "None of us have ever seen the real Easter bunny. Cause it's not real." > — Tim Creasey, intro voice or played clip · [02:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=172) > "So it's not only about managing change well, it's about managing the right change." > — Tom Marsicano, guest · [04:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=248) > "a good change manager in one industry can actually do quite well in another because the principles are the same, just the techno talk is different." > — Tom Marsicano, guest · [07:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=479) > "The scarcest of all these resources, of course, is, management focus, and the change demands a lot of that." > — Tom Marsicano, guest · [11:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=690) > "sometimes I think we're change managers because we, we find change very difficult. I certainly do." > — Tom Marsicano, guest · [14:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=882) > "Yeah, they're normally very important. I mean, I call them glueware." > — Tom Marsicano, guest · [15:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=941) > "People ultimately choose to change. We can't really force them." > — Tom Marsicano, guest · [19:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1196) > "Also, listening shows that you care, and often that is really what people are looking for during, times of, of change." > — Tom Marsicano, guest · [20:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1240) > "that's kind of smart use of technology that got me to change, and I didn't even realize it." > — Tom Marsicano, guest · [22:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1355) ### Claims > "So I tell the story in the Change Management space because when you go out and say Change Management, you have no idea what's going to pop in that person's head. They might think communication and training," > — Tim Creasey, intro voice or played clip · topic: Defining change management · [03:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=184) > "Right now, change management is the practice that leads people to truly change what they think, feel, and do. We do this in an organizational context so that organizations can achieve their strategies. So it's not only about managing change well, it's about managing the right change." > — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Defining change management · [03:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=234) > "No, I didn't start off in change management. I started off in business in general. In fact, I started off in IT, as an IT, professional." > — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Career background · [04:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=264) > "I chose change management because of, a conviction that I could make a difference by applying all that I've learned in my life to helping others cope with many difficulties they have to deal with." > — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Career background · [04:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=274) > "I've seen the huge damage that, badly managed change can cause, even death. But I've also seen the wonderful effect of well-managed change," > — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Career background · [04:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=285) > "AndChange is a globally inspired group where an experienced and creative team apply and integrate a unique mix of knowledge and methods and research in this, field with a personal flair and curiosity." > — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: AndChange · [05:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=314) > "I understand that, in mining, there is always the underlying drivers of, safety and tons. get those two right within a constraints of cost and market, forces, and we're halfway there." > — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Change in production environments · [06:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=377) > "So, for example, in the call center, everything is measured down to the second, because those seconds are a wasting asset, and saving ten seconds per phone call while keeping the quality of service high in an environment where there are tens of thousands of phone calls being handled every day equates to quite a big efficiency improvement." > — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Change in production environments · [06:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=416) > "It's always about building the same five key elements with people to get them to change. So the good news is that a good change manager in one industry can actually do quite well in another because the principles are the same, just the techno talk is different." > — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Change in production environments · [07:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=470) > "I say this because you're likely to find multiple cultures operating simultaneously in any area. There's the culture driven by the leader, but there is also the culture of the organization at large, and that this group is part of." > — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Culture and change · [08:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=531) > "In a change that involved changing the way people worked in this environment, that included office layout, pace of work, the collaboration techniques, and even the etiquette amongst the, amongst the workers, the deployment of this in Mexico, for example, was very different from the colleagues just a thousand kilometers away in the USA." > — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Culture and change · [09:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=579) > "In Brazil, I see a very hierarchical structure. So you'll see if the manager says one thing, then everybody will follow. Whereas if you work in a, a country like Australia, it is much more collaborative, and everybody has to buy in." > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Culture and change · [10:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=617) > "But what I have seen is the difficulty management has in balancing the priority. Of production against the disruption of the change itself. They are squeezed on both ends, you know." > — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Change in production environments · [10:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=656) > "The scarcest of all these resources, of course, is, management focus, and the change demands a lot of that." > — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Change in production environments · [11:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=690) > "we start to experience something we call change saturation, which sort of happens when the next change that we try to effect in that environment just causes, things to go negative, people to resist, and the change actually doesn't take, take hold." > — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Change saturation · [12:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=743) > "The title is, C.E.O. Gandhi. It looks at leadership from a different perspective, and this whole concept of servant, servant leadership's been around a long time," > — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Leadership · [13:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=780) > "We get so worried and taken in by trying to, you know, manage the change in corporate life, but actually it's the personal ones that are the tough ones." > — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Personal change · [14:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=866) > "knowing change management doesn't make it any easier. sometimes I think we're change managers because we, we find change very difficult. I certainly do." > — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Personal change · [14:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=879) > "I call them glueware. what do I mean by that? They bring their people from a place of, if you like, ignorance and fear about the, the change to full adoption and usage." > — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Supervisors as change leaders · [15:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=943) > "it's really important that they do this and not us as the change managers, because people really work for their leaders and this is the kind of stuff that really is part of leadership, isn't it?" > — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Supervisors as change leaders · [16:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=973) > "I always recommend that the change teams include that vital layer of the, you know, the middle management, the supervisors. they have a role to play and, one that I would never try to substitute." > — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Supervisors as change leaders · [16:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=993) > "We are getting more and more demands to change the way in which we do the training, break it up into small, small bites, if you like, have people get the knowledge that they need for, you know, to do the job on the job and near the job." > — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Training shift workers · [17:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1045) > "we just established a few shacks, and they were, sort of the shacks were almost on the walkways of where the miners were walking between shifts, and we only had about 15, 20 minutes with them, and we would have to teach them something about the new way of doing things." > — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Training shift workers · [17:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1070) > "one of the big ones is removing the barriers. You know, people have barriers to changing. These can vary from time obstacles, you know, I just don't have the time to do this new stuff, or, maybe even changing the measures, the way in which we measure people," > — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Resistance to change · [18:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1129) > "Another good one is explaining the consequences of not changing. It's the kind of so what, which is really important to, to a lot of people." > — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Resistance to change · [19:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1171) > "People ultimately choose to change. We can't really force them. You try to force somebody to change, the next thing we're going to get is compliance." > — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Resistance to change · [19:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1196) > "Last, but I think probably the most powerful of all, is listening. It's strange, but I mean really listen to, to what people have got to say." > — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Resistance to change · [20:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1210) > "I'm thinking of a case where a railway operator was implementing a change in the way they tracked and controlled their rolling stock." > — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Technology to embed change · [21:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1286) > "The other day I had to visit, my client at Sasol. To facilitate my safety, I downloaded an app on my phone and underwent a short training session before arriving at the building." > — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Technology to embed change · [22:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1320) > "I mean, why couldn't we develop an app that shows you for certain populations where are people in their change journey?" > — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Technology to embed change · [23:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1384) > "And it's live, it's real time. We don't have to run surveys, you know, cause a lot of people are all surveyed out these days." > — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Technology to embed change · [23:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1432) > "Well, I actually see this as a worldwide problem. I don't think it's a South African problem only. I'm amazed to see how in some ways the application of project management, for example, in organizations has gone backwards in recent times." > — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Change and project management · [24:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1475) > "We, we are just, too short of change managers, actually, at this point in time everywhere." > — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Change and project management · [24:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1499) > "I think that when we reach the right level of maturity in project management, we'll have change management integrated into this practice. But don't misunderstand me, you know, change management goes well beyond project management." > — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Change and project management · [25:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1517) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Petro du Pisani talks to 'And Change' owner, Tom Marsicano about change in a production environment. AndChange.com · Connect with Tom on LinkedIn · Connect with Petro · Solid Gold Podcasts