#005 WiMSA | Gender diversity in the mining industry

Lindi Nakedi, guest · [07:20]I don't think for me it was ever a problem that I was the only woman going to a meeting and I'm on, I'm the only woman. I think my only problem was that because I didn't study anything mining or geology, then my own insecurities were the ones that put me on a back foot. And that's when I used to feel as if I need to extra prepare for a meeting or whatever so that everybody can realize that, no, I know why I'm here and I understand why I'm here. So my own insecurities sort of put me on the back foot and I never felt like anybody was discriminating against me. But I suppose also over time, when you start seeing how people communicate with you or react to you, you realize that it's not just the fact that maybe I'm not from the mining industry, but for the fact that I'm a woman. And I think one other thing that I, I started noticing is that They'd know I'm the owner of the business, but they'd still want to talk to my geologist husband, even though he tells them, look, I'm not the one who makes the decision when it comes to this business. This is the person you should actually be talking to. And you still have people who say, oh, okay, no, great, I hear that. Can we have a meeting? You know, that was annoying.

Noleen Pauls, guest · [09:46]Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna start with the second part of your question. There definitely is a better acceptance, I think, throughout the entire industry, right from your colleagues to the bosses and HR. Although I think that there still would be an issue of where two people have applied for the same job, the guy would generally get it. And that's my own perception. I'm not saying that that's what it is, but that is my perception. Obviously, there's been a lot of changes. You know, when I first joined the industry, women weren't allowed to work underground, whereas, of course, now we can. And it's better. I think it's still a hard industry, and if you look at research, especially women in mining research, women do feel that they're still not accepted. They still feel that it's an old boys club because the guys go to the pub on a Friday afternoon or they play golf, and that's where the decisions are made, and women feel excluded from that. But then, of course, we have to look at At the fact that those are women's perceptions, and it's not necessarily what's happening. That's right. What do you

Lindi Nakedi, guest · [10:45]think, Lindi? I think that there's an acceptance. There are people who are actually trying to say, look, I'm here, I'm willing to have any woman on my team when you look into different organizations. When I look at the business arena, though, I find that a lot of women will come to me at WiMSA events and say, I'm trying to break into the industry, I've got a certain service that I'm offering, but people think that I can't, or when I go and knock on any door, they don't open it because they feel I don't know the industry well enough, or I'm just not what they're looking for. And I think there we still need a lot of change in terms of I'm a service provider, I don't have to be a man, I don't have to be a woman, I just have to offer the service. And I think that's where I'm coming from all the time to say, never mind the fact that I'm a woman, let's put a cardboard box and cover my face Cover my body. Let's talk business and get it out the way. I don't think it should matter whether I'm a woman or a man if there's a deliverable. If there's an output that needs to be there, let me see if I can do that. And if I can't do that, then fine, move on to the next person, but not because they're a woman or because they're a man.

Petro du Pisani, host · [12:03]In South Africa, diversity is a huge issue, or it's something that actually is starting to be legislated now. And diversity targets are part of our new mining charter, which hasn't been accepted yet. There's been a new proposal for our mining charter. I read an article in the Mining Weekly where they say that we've made big strides already, that we've gone from a minority representation to over thirteen percent representation, which in their eyes is a huge achievement. But if you look at the targets for the mining charter, it's at least probably twenty-five percent of, they say, black females in managements and Comes more as you go down lower through the ranks, and I would imagine that that matches on the other side with then also other colors also having twenty-five percent representation. So it's a huge change for us to have to go from thirteen percent to probably fifty percent female representation. What do you think it will take for us to achieve these sorts of targets?

Lindi Nakedi, guest · [13:02]What do

Petro du Pisani, host · [13:02]we need to

Lindi Nakedi, guest · [13:02]change? Immediately in my head what comes is a mindset change, because I think with everything, there's a perception that everybody will have. So When people are being told, look, this is the quota, you must meet that, it doesn't talk to the perception or the mindset of a person, you know, because now all they have to do is tick a box, and it won't make the kind of difference it's supposed to make. Everybody complains about, but then don't we hire on merit? Don't we do this on merit? And for a mindset to say, look, it's not just about the merit now, because we're trying to level the playing field. What I need to do is to say, here's a level playing field. I need to up this. You know, if my pointer for men is at this level and for women it's here, it means I need to be getting it higher. Therefore, I am going to look at the qualified, I'm going to look at the experienced, and I'm going to start working towards making that happen. And in my mind, it's not that I'm being forced to do it, but I see that I need to make a change, and therefore I'm going to drive it, which is why I always say that if it's not driven from the leadership down, then it's a problem because you're not going to see the meaningful change that you actually want to see.

Petro du Pisani, host · [14:23]Definitely. So what do you think we need to do now, Lindi?

Noleen Pauls, guest · [14:25]Well, I think practically we have to look at the fact that there just aren't enough women in the mining industry to fill the quotas. And in order to do that, we need to attract more women to the mining industry. That doesn't mean that we're going to fill the quotas in the next ten years because the quotas are specifically for women in management. However, that is a good starting point. And just to build on Lindi's comment about merit, I always say to women, especially to the young girls, it's great to have legislation and to have that opportunity to be Somebody who is looked at because of a quota system, because our legislation is opening people's eyes to the fact that it's an issue and that we need to bring more women into the mining industry. But when you've got that position or you've gone for that interview, then you prove how good you are.

Petro du Pisani, host · [15:23]If we look at it from a sort of structured change management approach, one of the things that you do right at the beginning of a change project is you set what it's going to look like in the end. So what will it look like when we have the representation that we're looking for? And imagine what that looks like and paint that picture, because otherwise we're never going to know whether we've arrived at that point or not. And then from there, we work backwards. What are the things that we need to do to arrive at that vision in the end? So whose sponsorship do we need? I mean, do we, we need the HR people at the various mining companies' eyes to go open and say, there's a business case for having women in the mining industry, and we need the people who are doing the hiring to go, yes, we have to have a more diverse profile. If we don't get those guys on board and supporting this cause of getting more women into the mining industry, it's not going to happen either. And then from there on, it's all about, then we have to find the correct women and build their skills and coach them so that they can also be a part of this very challenging industry. But as much as we say it's challenging for women, the mining industry is challenging for everybody. It's not just challenging for women, it's for anybody. If you've been down to a, a mining face at the bottom of an underground mine, it's not a nice place to be working. Anybody who's going to work there is going to suffer. Everybody needs to understand that it's the same for men and women. And then The other thing that I'd like to add is then the whole coaching piece. So we have to coach women to be able to stand up for themselves, have their voices heard, and be part of that, and it needs to be a designed and facilitated process, I guess. So that's the structured sort of change management approach we have to think about what it's going to look like.

Petro du Pisani, host · [26:43]So I think a big part of us having to make this transformation from where we currently are to where we want to get to is the training, coaching, mentoring part of it. And you guys are from Women in Mining South Africa, and it's a fantastic platform for this type of work to happen, where we actually pair people up with mentees and mentors go together. So what role do these types of practices play?

Noleen Pauls, guest · [27:10]I think it's very important to have a intercompany mentoring program because within your company, your boss or your manager could very well be your mentor. So you can't really tell him that he's being a pain or that you disagree with what he's saying. And by no means are we saying within WiMSA that women should have women mentors, but it brings a whole different dynamic into a woman's career progression when she has somebody else who's been there, who's done that, and who can guide her in making the changes that she needs to do to get to the top position.

Lindi Nakedi, guest · [27:50]That's right. Training, coaching, mentoring. So yes, it is important. I want to agree with Noleen on that, that in my language, sotho, They say, which is, if I directly translate it, is that the road is asked of those who have been there before. So it's important to actually have someone who has walked the path before and has seen and done what somebody else is looking at and saying, look, I like Noleen's profile, and I wish I could know how she made it and how she did it. And so for her to open up and be willing to mentor and guide. And I think that's where WMSA, you know, we're trying to find all those women with all that experience, that wealth of experience to open up to those who are still coming up and who want to learn and who want to become exactly what they are. So we need that. And it's not often that you find people who are willing to open up. You do find the very strange phenomenon where people want to keep their knowledge and keep their skills to themselves, which is What we're trying to encourage against now to say, look, let's teach each other, you know.

Noleen Pauls, guest · [29:00]I do think that's something we see in the mining industry within women a lot, and the fact that they've done the hard work, they've got to the position where they are, and they're protecting their own positions, and we call it the pH syndrome, pull her down syndrome. Which is exactly, as Lindi said, what we're trying to discourage.

Noleen Pauls, guest · [34:32]So WMSA was created as a networking platform, but we really quickly realized that we could offer so much more. Wherever we went, we were asked about where can we find role models. So we then created the patron initiative where we Approached high-ranking women in the mining industry who are now our patrons. And basically, it's just as Lindi had said already, saying they've done it, so we can do it too. Agreed. I think also

Lindi Nakedi, guest · [34:59]we then started moving to include entrepreneurs because we realized that there are women who are in the mining industry who are not necessarily working for a certain company, but working for themselves and needed the support as well to network and find opportunities through the very women that are within these organization. I mean, that's how I came to WiMSA, because I own a company and I needed to start meeting up with other women who are in the industry where I can look for opportunities. So it's sort of also started becoming more about saying, let's open up opportunities. Let's open up on information where we partnered with SAIMM for the entrepreneurship forum to say, what information can we give you to best empower you As you are navigating through the business arena. So WiMSA, it's like an information hub and network, and now it needs to grow and become maybe the place where all the information, especially the research part, information is important in this day and age. So we have to be that.

Noleen Pauls, guest · [36:06]And also, obviously, attracting women to the mining industry. So we deal quite a lot with students, and we try to get their mentors to help them make the transition from being a student to working in the environment, which you and I both know, Pietro, from going from varsity into the environment was quite hard, and you didn't even have that.