#040 Special Focus on Burnout | Laura-Jean Evens & Lurinda Maree

Lurinda Maree, guest · [03:11]I think in my practice, it's three things I look at. First of all, that overwhelming exhaustion that, Laura was referring to now, as well as like a detachment or a cynicism around, around your job. And then inefficacy is the third one. So inefficacy, when I, when I sit with someone in front of me, I don't really ask the direct questions, because in my opinion, they never give me truthful answers, so I ask around something to get with. And if I want to check with, with the person if they have that extreme exhaustion, I usually go into body clues. So I'll ask them about any patterns in any physical things like, headaches and insomnia, and so that'll be a clue to me. And then when, with regard to detachment and cynicism, just the wording they use when they speak about their jobs is a negative overall, do they have a positive regard for what they're doing and for the people they're working with or not, and do they still have the ability to make generous assumptions about things and people? Because I think when they lose that, that's a big clue as well. And then in terms of self-doubt, where you get to the inefficacy of not having a belief in your own abilities. this one for me, like Laura also mentioned, it's very complex because it, it coincides with other things, but especially the inefficacy, the self-doubt, and doubting your own decisions, so massive indecisiveness, that kind of stuff. Is very similar to organizational bullying and emotional abuse. So there you have to almost ask for me, I always look for whether it's connected to a personal situation or whether it's in general. So if there's a general, if it's in general, then we know that is more burnout than it is something else. So those are the three things I look for, and then also if the person is very self-critical, when the, when they have that feelings of inefficacy, how do they deal with themselves in terms of self-talk, and do they have self-compassion or not? And if they have no self-compassion, that is also something that I look for. Yeah, so those are the things I look for when I, when I try to determine if someone is on the edge of burnout, because I think a lot of the time people don't know.

Lurinda Maree, guest · [08:54]I think, definitely that culture is the onus is on the employer. To create a culture and environment where people will have the lowest risk of getting into burnout. And in one of the studies I read, there is, there's seven organizational risk factors, and if you read them for, for burnout, and that is command and control environments, rewards, fairness, values, workload, and community. And if you think about it, all of those are part of culture and how things are experienced at work. So obviously it is intertwined with it, but I, I think for me again, there are questions I ask when, or when I work with teams in organizations and I work within a system, I look for three, three flag things. The first is, how do they reward and punish? And how do people feel about punishment in specific? So are they scared of punishment? Is there fear around punishment? Because that drives something in the system to say that I need to not make mistakes. And that's my second one, zero tolerance for mistakes. In terms of the experience, not in terms of what they say. Because sometimes people say, no, we have an open door policy. here we learn from our mistakes as long as we learn from our mistakes. But actually on the ground, people are so scared that they're going to make a mistake that they are, they have so much anxiety to make mistakes that they start doing more and more and more to make sure that they can't make a mistake. You know the idea of meetings for meetings for meetings, so that we're prepared in the meeting and on the same page. Those are all signs that people are scared to make mistakes. And then the third one is how does the leadership react and do, do they have emotional integrity? Do they say what they mean, mean what they say, and does it filter through into the day-to-day operations? Can you see it on the ground? So those things to me is very important, but the reason I say it's loaded Is because for me, everything is in the dynamics. And to your point earlier, there are people, it's a dance between what is given to you and how you react to it, or how you collude with some things. So people with a type A personality, people who are traumatized, people who have been oppressed, and they live in that, like, inner world of oppression, it gives you a certain worldview and certain thoughts and certain approaches, and that makes you collude with certain things in how the culture is set up. So, do you think that, the type of culture that's high command control, very zero tolerance on mistakes, is like, it's like a breeding ground for type A personalities, because what you mentioned earlier is they want to go and do everything. They don't want to say no, and then the culture provides the rewards for that. So, do you think it's that dance, and it's in understanding how that dance work and what companies can adjust, which I call lever activities. What lever can you pull that can change a lot of things for the organization? And that is all for me, like you said, in the culture.

Lurinda Maree, guest · [16:40]Yes, I have, I have had a client who I've got, I've got two. The one that we figured out she is in burnout, and she didn't know, and it was quite a big realization for her, but then I referred her to a psychologist, a, a clinical psychologist, and, she just sent me a message later to say she's in therapy, and it's been, her biggest takeaway from that was that she wasn't aware how bad it was, and I think that is a common story. And then, I usually get people when they're either in the burnout or after the burnout, and for me, the biggest thing we do in therapy then is we work, I call it the journey back to the self. Because there's, there's so much disconnect in this that you, you can't locate yourself. And I feel like when we can start locating ourselves, we can start reevaluating how we relate to things, and then that becomes the journey. And the moment we know where we are and what we like and what we want out of life, then we can relocate, re, connect to others and to ideas and to jobs and to roles and to all those things. So that's the work we do together. but I think the biggest thing that, that I enjoy doing with people is just finding, finding pockets of joy in every day. because that's the other thing, you're so focused on all the negative stuff and what it does to you, and, that you kind of forget that there's still things we enjoy and that we love, and it's like looking forward to those things. And then at the end, it was really, at the end, it meant for that person transitioning to a different job and a different job role. And sometimes that's not what you think. I think the biggest lesson for me is that every individual case is completely different. And once you do start with the self and move from there outwards, that's when they start to realize, okay, but this environment isn't good for me. And I'm colluding with things in these kinds of systems. So let's start looking to put you up, like set, setting people up for success. that is then what, what happened. She had to transition to a different job and she really just phoned me afterwards and said she never knew that work can be such a pleasure.

Petro du Pisani, host · [18:58]Yeah.

Lurinda Maree, guest · [18:59]So it's as if when you're stuck in it, you don't know there's a way out.

Laura-Jean Evens, guest · [21:08]those are so many stories and I went through my own story, so I just thought I'd tell that story. so yeah, Was loving what I was doing. I was actually in a change management role and, just thriving on the engagement, and what was really, happening is that it was stimulating and fun, but, I mean, it wasn't like fun enjoyment like I get when I go on an adventurous holiday, but, but it was, It, it was great. It felt good. What I wasn't paying attention to was my sleep. So I was working hard, putting a lot of effort in, and, not sleeping well. I wasn't paying attention to my nutrition, and what was going in. we, we were just working in a room and like it was go, go, go to get to a deadline. And it was for a very serious situation. This person who was the CEO had to tell not only his employees, but the market on a listed, it is a listed company, you know, what, what, the restructure would look like. And that can Caused a lot of angst for, for people and for employees. So there was a lot of strategizing and, yeah, I just didn't pay attention to myself in the process. My sleep, my nutrition, I let my exercise slip. I usually run about four times a week in nature and it's like, it's like an embedded strategy for me. It just, it, it works. It helps everything. It helps slow down. And, all of the, the, like the disciplines that are healthy in my life, I guess I let slip. And that is when I went and I hit the wall, and I just had to disengage. I know having worked with people, it can take years for people to recover from burnout, in some cases four years, two years, clients that I've worked with. For me, thankfully, it took Like two weeks for me to get my, my mind in the right space again, but then I took three months to slow down and just pay attention to these, the strategies, the rhythms, the rule of life that, that is in place. So I could, Brené Brown says, we don't always rise to the heights of our aspirations, we fall to the level of our systems. So what are those healthy strategies and systems in our lives? Thankfully, mine were in place, and I think that was part of my journey to recovery and why it was so fast.

Laura-Jean Evens, guest · [24:21]Yeah, and I think that's also from my story, but some of the, the things that are, are realized, and after hearing other people's stories, is that doctors do prescribe the outdoors and nature. In fact, a friend of mine who also work, walked through burnout, she, the doctor said to her, she was having severe panic attacks, and the doctor said, go and do gardening. And literally she took time out, a gardening leave. Gardening and creative outlets is something that they've, there's research to prove that you just get onto another, into another zone. It bypasses all, all the like problem solving and we get into much more of the limbic brain, not the neocortex. And yeah, you just become engrossed in something that you're doing and it, it really helps. So creative outlets, I chose pottery. my friend is, her husband is an incredible artist, so art and pottery, something creative, really helps. It does initiate your problem solving and your innovative approach to things. Certainly with pottery, there are lots of life lessons and you have to, you're going one direction and then shucks, it's not working out how you, you pictured and then you have to change. But it's a, it's always like being in the bush, you know, it's, you're focused on finding animals, but it's, it's not, like draining or stressful, but you, you've got a different focus. You switch focus. So being outdoors, doing something creative, and then connection is like so key. And that is I think, well, in pottery, oh, it's like I call it clay therapy, because you can, you can disconnect and withdraw from people and just do what you're doing, designing that piece, that masterpiece that you're working on. Or you can just, come away from that and engage in conversation with the people around the room. So there's both the connection, and then there's something to be said for, you know, if you're working on a piece, an artwork piece or a ceramic piece, that you come back again and you pick up from the stories that you left off telling in the last week. So there's this, weekly connection, so I think some sort of connection and belonging in a space that you really enjoy, is great.

Lurinda Maree, guest · [36:51]I was thinking about, I call it the phases of burnout, but that's not scientific. That's just my, my observations in dealing with people, because I meet people along the way. And then for me, it's important if you're listening to this and you're thinking, oh, so many things resonate. I like to understand, am I pre-burnout? Like I can, I can feel I'm giving into too much, I'm not having good boundaries, that kind of stuff. And there for me, the essential thing is to get to the boundary stuff and reevaluate your goals. So that's kind of the work I'll do there if I see people are there and just start to create perspective on what is important and where you want to spend your time. I loved you saying forty thousand weekends or weeks. Four thousand weeks. Four thousand weeks. That's what you get. That is insane. But I think it creates perspective because you don't realize you wipe out your eyes and then it's two, twenty years later and you're like, what did I do with my life? So you don't want, you want to prevent that. And then I usually get people in the middle, like while they're doing, it, it started, they usually don't know they're in it. And then for that, it's also like there you start to deal with a lot of trauma, trauma signals. So to look out for that and then just it's very disillusioning to know. it's a bittersweet, like any other diagnosis. I work a lot with neurodiversity in adults, and like that diagnosis, it, it's relief because finally you have a reason for why you're doing stuff, but it is just so harsh because now I have this, I have this label, I have this thing, and I have to deal with it. So there's a lot of trauma involved in just being very compassionate with yourself in that phase specifically. And then the aftermath, Is where, okay, now all of this has happened, I've done all of these things, but what now? The what now part. And I think there's many ways to get out of that stuckness, because I feel between the two, there's this little, this little, I don't know what to call it, like a hole that you fall into, and you're stuck, and you feel ambivalent about everything, you feel like you don't care about anything, and I think that is important to get to, that's the journey back to the South where I usually work with people. But it's good to know that there's different phases and to kind of try and figure out where you are along this path, because for each part that you're in, there's different, different things to notice and different things to do. And I think that's important, just as you're listening and you're thinking, oh, maybe I am in it.